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Conflict in the Middle East

To think it’s turning into genocide in real time part 2

751 replies

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 22/10/2023 08:43

First thread here but it’s full
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4918938-to-think-its-turning-into-genocide-in-real-time?page=1

Medical Aid to Palestine posted this thread on facebook describing the scenes in Gaza as being like the last days of humanity with one of their staff members having to search through piles of bodies to find his 13 year old niece https://www.facebook.com/100064712829372/posts/pfbid028yxpzimtA3apA6CSs8dEhJBd16rYUQR6QjFidEpwRCZzPVYoeJezX8nDrtZP2UZRl/?app=fbl

The main stream press aren’t really addressing the horror of what is happening (bar maybe Channel 4 news and Al Jazeera) - it’s a sanitised version.

As I said in the original thread, there has been absolute horror on both sides but the Israeli government are inflicting collective punishment on the people of Gaza, which is a war crime under international law.

I still feel we are watching genocide in real time.

To think it’s turning into genocide in real time | Mumsnet

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide. What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this i...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4918938-to-think-its-turning-into-genocide-in-real-time?page=1

OP posts:

Am I being unreasonable?

177 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
31%
You are NOT being unreasonable
69%
Heelenahandbasket · 26/10/2023 12:43

Ostryga · 26/10/2023 12:40

For fucks sake 😂 you’re just a raging islamaphobe

It is not anti-Semitic to support Palestine.

It’s anti semitic to spout Hamas lies and to hold Israel to a different standard than anyone else.

I did not hear a peep from any of you shouting that Ukraine were committing war crimes against Russia. Nor Saudi against Yemen. If it’s just Jews you hate, yes, you’re an anti semite.

Heelenahandbasket · 26/10/2023 12:45

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 12:40

@Ostryga This might be the most delusional thing I’ve ever seen on here

Quite. Its scary. It’s actually how genocide happens too.

geno is not a war or where the population actually increases. Don’t spout Hamas lies as support of a fictional “genocide” at Jewish people. We know genocide.

Ostryga · 26/10/2023 12:46

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FactFairy · 26/10/2023 12:47

You’re the delusional one, @Ostryga.

How dare you misuse words like “genocide” in such a way?

Israel has declared war on an independent state following one of the most horrifying attacks on it in living memory.

Israel has not only the right, it has an actual DUTY to protect it’s citizens. What the fuck else is it supposed to do? Nothing?

And, by the way, the founding charter of Hamas literally calls for the eradication of the Jewish state and the Jews within it. THAT is genocide - and one that you’re apparently perfectly fine with.

The only people reporting a high death rate in Gaza are the baby murdering, child rapists Hamas…the same people who immediately claimed 500 dead minutes after one of their own damn rockets hit a car park. How strange you’d choose to believe them…better fits your anti-semetic narrative, eh?

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 12:47

@Heelenahandbasket how do you know? There are long standing threads on here about Ukraine.

And screaming anti semite at anyone that supports the Palestinian people is utter nonsense. Maybe read the original thread on this topic- you’ll see that there was support for the Israeli people too.

Most people can seperate Hamas from the Palestinian people- you don’t seem to be able to . Most people can separate Israeli people from their government actions too.


But frankly to deny what the Israeli government is doing is shameful and deliberately ignorant.

OP posts:
petuniasandpetals · 26/10/2023 12:48

Are you asking for the hostages back?
Are you condoning Palestinians being used as human shields?
Are you asking Hamas to give up their fuel?
Are you asking how there is still capacity to fire rockets into Israel?
Are you asking for the destruction of Israel and all Jews?
Have you considered you might be anti semitic?

FactFairy · 26/10/2023 12:48

Israel is not committing war crimes.

FactFairy · 26/10/2023 12:51

@Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 You are not supporting the Palestinians. Anyone who truly gave a shit would be praying for Hamas to be wiped off the face of the earth so that they no longer have to live under the oppression of the most horrific “government” in living memory.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 12:53

@FactFairy yea but they aren’t targeting just Hamas are they? They have killed over 2000 kids. They are just flattening Gaza. They have used collective punishment- it’s against the Geneva convention to target water supplies.

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Ostryga · 26/10/2023 12:54

FactFairy · 26/10/2023 12:51

@Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 You are not supporting the Palestinians. Anyone who truly gave a shit would be praying for Hamas to be wiped off the face of the earth so that they no longer have to live under the oppression of the most horrific “government” in living memory.

Yes and Israel can do that like America did with Osama Bin Laden. They managed to annihilate him without 6000+ deaths in Pakistan.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 12:58

What should Israel do to comply with international humanitarian law? Israel has fundamental legal obligations to abide by during its campaign against Hamas. Heavily charged statements by some Israeli officials need to be separated from sound legal policy. In brief, Israel must meet several standards:

  • It must not use starvation (including deprivation of food, water, and other essentials for survival) of Gaza’s civilian population as a weapon of war against Hamas or for any reason.

Expert Guidance: Law of Armed Conflict in the Israel-Hamas War

Experts detail how the laws of war apply to Israel-Hamas conflict to assist policymakers and the public at large.

https://www.justsecurity.org/89489/expert-guidance-law-of-armed-conflict-in-the-israel-hamas-war/

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FactFairy · 26/10/2023 13:07

@Ostryga Nobody but the terrorists is saying there are 6000 deaths in Gaza - except the lying murderers, that is.

How many militaries in the world do a leaflet drop before they bomb anywhere? Send text messages, put out public announcements and make phone calls? Only one does that - the Israelis. They use precision bombs and send them to specific military targets - unlike Hamas that fires indiscriminately into civilian areas, and continues to do so.

Hamas also deliberately stop their own people (including children) from leaving because they want lots of photos of dead bodies to show the credulous and ignorant Western media as part of their “evil Israel” propaganda. The useful idiots always come through for them…as you are doing now.

Israel is NOT committing war crimes - Hamas is. But you don’t care.

@Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 They are not using collective punishment. Stop using terms you don’t understand.

Israel supplied a small amount of water and electricity to Gaza FREE because Hamas wouldn’t build the infrastructure for it - instead using aid money to buy weapons and build tunnels. That water & electricity was shut off because Hamas are using it for the bombs they continue to fire at civilian targets in Israel. You think Israel should be supplying their enemy in wartime? Grow up.

Same goes for the fuel for the generators & water salination plants - there’s plenty in Gaza. Hamas are keeping it for their weapons.

And stop taking the word of psychopaths over how many dead children there are. What’s wrong with you?

FactFairy · 26/10/2023 13:11

@Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 Since that’s not what Israel is doing, they are therefore not committing a war crime.

Hamas by the way is:

Using civilians as shields
Targeting Israeli civilians with bombs
Using hospital fuel supplies for weapons
Preventing civilians from fleeing

ALL OF THOSE ARE WAR CRIMES. But the brainiacs on here have nothing to say about that.

Featherbirds · 26/10/2023 13:11

I think the issue here is that Israel has been, on several occasions from 1948, known to be purposely not credible when things happen. They do not admit their own doings until they have been caught out.

This is a conflict between Israel, an internationally recognised state, and Hamas, a defacto guerilla government that has been in power since 2006 and are unaligned with the PLO who control the West Bank. Are they equal, no. However, war crimes have happened on both sides, that is true.

What people also need to realise is that Israel may not control what happens within Gaza itself, but it does control what goes in, out, and knows who lives where. If Israel did not control the water, fuel and electricity, then how would they have cut it?

And yes, they do know who lives where as the authorities must share documents with Israel. That is how they can call people and let them know if/when they bomb their homes - this isn't always consistent however. This has been confirmed by a leading Israeli journalist and IDF specialist that the IDF have targeted the Al Jazeera Arabic's Head of Gaza Journalist's family home after they asked Qatar to 'tone down' on the reporting of what is happening.

Also, the Israeli PM Office have confirmed that they have refused two more hostages to be returned recently. Netanyahu does not want peace or believe in the two state solution, so even if the PLO could at least negotiate this, he along with other Israeli government ministers would not agree.

The language that is used to dehumanise the Palestinian people, not Hamas, by Israeli politicians has been abhorrent. Besides, the US and UK have also committed war crimes in the past, Israeli politicians bringing that up is just whataboutery in my opinion.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 13:12

@FactFairy jesus, your posts are so far down a denial rabbit hole, I can’t even be bothered to try to unpick them. It’s so disturbing.

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Tonkerbea · 26/10/2023 13:18

I'm beginning to think some Mumsnet accounts have been created with the sole purpose of spewing pro-Israeli government crap, and to minimise the war crimes taking place in Gaza.

And don't jump on me and call me anti-Semitic. I'm horrified by the attacks of 7/10 and praying for the release of hostages, as well as praying for ceasefire. I say pray, but it's hard to have faith after the images I've seen coming out of Israel and Gaza these past few days.

Iwasafool · 26/10/2023 13:19

Heelenahandbasket · 26/10/2023 12:43

It’s anti semitic to spout Hamas lies and to hold Israel to a different standard than anyone else.

I did not hear a peep from any of you shouting that Ukraine were committing war crimes against Russia. Nor Saudi against Yemen. If it’s just Jews you hate, yes, you’re an anti semite.

How many Russian children have been killed by Ukrainians in 20 months of conflict? Is it zero or just close to zero?

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 13:21

I'm beginning to think some Mumsnet accounts have been created with the sole purpose of spewing pro-Israeli government crap, and to minimise the war crimes taking place in Gaza

@Tonkerbea yes quite. The blindness and denial of mass child death in Gaza on a parenting website shouldn’t go unnoticed.

OP posts:
FactFairy · 26/10/2023 13:24

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Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 13:30

@FactFairy you are literally screaming at all of us claiming we know nothing and then sharing footage from Talk TV 🙄

You don’t know any of our backgrounds or history either. It’s just utter arrogance.

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Featherbirds · 26/10/2023 13:51

@FactFairy

If Amnesty International and the UN and Israel themselves have said that Israel is cutting off water, electricity and fuel (because you need fuel for electricity and electricity for water salination then that is a crime. If Israel is so adamant about this, then I think the ICJ will happily look at it and decide.

A barrister is a barrister, they will argue to the hilt about what they believe is the right application of law. However, the ultimate decides are judges. Like I said earlier, if Israel and this barrister really want to stick it to Hamas, go on and do it at the ICJ - nothing is stopping them.

Arafat (from the secular PLO) wanted the Palestinians in diaspora, West Bank, and Gaza to return to their ancestral villages. Yes, the offer from the Israelis was generous but he justified and that's his and the PLO's decision because it was. Now, if Israel said "People who lived in Jaffa, and Haifa, and other former villages, come back and we'll give you citizenship or a path to citizenship" then I think it might have been received better. But what do I know, I am not a Palestinian so that is just point scoring. Ultimately this conflict is about land.

Also ”From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” = No Israel. Literal genocide." - this is wrong. It means Palestine will be free, it does not mean there will be no Israeli people. However, I understand that Palestinian liberation means the end of Zionism but Jews (of all nationalities might I add) did live in Palestine for centuries before the Balfour Declaration was written up.

If the Kurdish, who also don't have a recognised state, said "From the edge of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran, Kurdistan will be free", does that mean genocide to the Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran? No, it does not.

I'm not clueless either - I have done my research and I've lived and interacted in Jewish spaces. I can just see ethnic cleansing when it happens.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 14:04

@Featherbirds A barrister is a barrister, they will argue to the hilt about what they believe is the right application of law

Yes quite. I work with law academics who are ex lawyers and this is absolutely the case.

Thanks for your post - really interesting.

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BumWad · 26/10/2023 14:07

Absolutely horrific. I’m ashamed to be British.

Featherbirds · 26/10/2023 14:10

Featherbirds · 26/10/2023 13:51

@FactFairy

If Amnesty International and the UN and Israel themselves have said that Israel is cutting off water, electricity and fuel (because you need fuel for electricity and electricity for water salination then that is a crime. If Israel is so adamant about this, then I think the ICJ will happily look at it and decide.

A barrister is a barrister, they will argue to the hilt about what they believe is the right application of law. However, the ultimate decides are judges. Like I said earlier, if Israel and this barrister really want to stick it to Hamas, go on and do it at the ICJ - nothing is stopping them.

Arafat (from the secular PLO) wanted the Palestinians in diaspora, West Bank, and Gaza to return to their ancestral villages. Yes, the offer from the Israelis was generous but he justified and that's his and the PLO's decision because it was. Now, if Israel said "People who lived in Jaffa, and Haifa, and other former villages, come back and we'll give you citizenship or a path to citizenship" then I think it might have been received better. But what do I know, I am not a Palestinian so that is just point scoring. Ultimately this conflict is about land.

Also ”From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” = No Israel. Literal genocide." - this is wrong. It means Palestine will be free, it does not mean there will be no Israeli people. However, I understand that Palestinian liberation means the end of Zionism but Jews (of all nationalities might I add) did live in Palestine for centuries before the Balfour Declaration was written up.

If the Kurdish, who also don't have a recognised state, said "From the edge of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran, Kurdistan will be free", does that mean genocide to the Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran? No, it does not.

I'm not clueless either - I have done my research and I've lived and interacted in Jewish spaces. I can just see ethnic cleansing when it happens.

Forgot to finish the sentence there "Yes, the offer from the Israelis was generous but he justified and that's his and the PLO's decision because it was the fact Palestinians and their descendants did not have the right of return that Jewish Israelis do."

If an Palestinian-American citizen with the birthplace of, let's say, Safed wanted to visit Palestine, they can't do so using Israeli airports - they have to fly Egypt or Jordan and drive up. Arafat found this unfair.

Sippingmytea · 26/10/2023 14:15

“It’s anti semitic to spout Hamas lies and to hold Israel to a different standard than anyone else.”

Nobody is treating Israel to a different standard. Israel is expected to follow international law just like any other country including those engaged in conflict.

That means not bombing schools or hospitals, not collectively punishing 2 million people by cutting off access to food, water and electricity. Not using chemical weapons.

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