Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

[Bakensmile]

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

I read an article yesterday which helped me make sense of some of my feelings about the news coming out of the Middle East - here, from Rob Delaney in the Guardian.

"The state should be “better” at solving problems than a violently bereaved father, but... it is very often demonstrably not."

Another comment that will get another thread zapped. Sigh.

Someone who needs a library of gory dead baby pictures to believe in Hamas atrocities is not someone serious about war crimes. Hamas themselves released footage of actual life babies kidnapped as hostages. I suppose the mums here are in denial of that too.

Even then! Even if the Israeli government turns out to be correct (I would want some independent confirmation of that, though, the IDF has a long track record of blatantly lying about such matters) ...

They are currently arguing "It couldn't have been our ordonance, we have proof! See, there is no crater and limited structural damage, so it couldn't have been us - because our own bombs are mahooooooosive, though, look at the entire neighbourhoods we have flattened! So it was not us, on the grounds that when we bomb stuff, it causes a lot more damage!"

They are essentially saying exactly that - and somehow expect us all to think that's a great pitch for the position of "good guy"!

👏 the low levels are getting snake belly low, now.

'The mums here'

Not all are mums love!

Yep, so much emotive language and twisting of words.

The irony

I don't see any of that in my post. I could have said "don't any of you mums care about the Palestinian babies being killed?!' It's unfair to assume people don't, simply because they disagree with certain actions. Apart from quite a lot of posters not being women or parents.

The problem is this conflict didn't 7th October 2023...
We need to look at the historical context to understand both sides... and even then I fear the issue is so complex that its difficult to grasp.

And the fact that governments and media seem to take sides, its no wonder threds like this get eventually deleted.

We need discussion to understand the issues.

https://www.who.int/news/item/17-10-2023-who-statement-on-attack-on-al-ahli-arab-hospital-and-reported-large-scale-casualties

The hospital was one of 20 in the north of the Gaza Strip facing evacuation orders from the Israeli military. The order for evacuation has been impossible to carry out given the current insecurity, critical condition of many patients, and lack of ambulances, staff, health system bed capacity, and alternative shelter for those displaced.

The Israeli army asked for the hospital to be evacuated but they didn't then bomb it? ... Okay

An Israeli spokesperson took credit for the attack before deleting their tweet.

Israel posted and deleted old video footage relating it to the attack

bbc spokesperson today in discussion with an IDF spokesperson pointed out that Israel has history of claiming attacks on civilians have been Hamas when further investigation has proven it was Israel themselves. I was quite shocked by this and expected IDF spokesperson to rubbish this claim, but he didn’t he said (I’m obviously paraphrasing) “this time we are right”.

look at what they have been doing over the last week? They have killed thousands of civilians. More children have been killed in a week compared to Ukrainian children killed in a year. But ‘Israel has a right to defend itself’ is shouted out regardless of what they do.

An Israeli spokesperson took credit for the attack before deleting their tweet.

He's primarily a social media influencer and is unlikely to have had insider knowledge, he saw the news reports and sent a dickish tweet, it was not from an official government account.

Your deliberate oversight of the broader situation is evident. While Palestinian citizens within Israel may have certain rights, the crux of the matter lies in the occupied territories, where conditions echo a pattern akin to apartheid. Palestinians face significant restrictions on their freedom, particularly in the West Bank. The Israeli government often designates areas inhabited by Palestinians as of military or archaeological significance, leading to forced evictions. Despite sporadic court cases, Palestinians almost always lose. The court cases are not really a form of legitimate redress, but rather a way of legitimising the land grab by the Israeli state. A few months later... Lo and behold, those "important" pieces of land suddenly become Israeli settlements (shock)

Palestinians encounter obstacles in many other aspects of their lives. Home improvement, being one as permits for extensions or renovations are routinely denied. Attempts to connect homes to the water system are met with pipes being cut by soldiers, and even the installation of solar panels faces resistance, with Israeli soldiers at times forcibly removing them from homes not on the grid. I could go on but I'm sure you get the jist. These instances collectively contribute to the idea that Palestinians are third class citizens on their own land.

Let that poster carry on. The thread will be deleted a lot quicker.

Missives/rockets, whatever you want to call them do go amiss on occasion. They’re not infallible.

@Bakensmile said: "I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil."

They're humans who are more than capable of murder, crimes and atrocities. The fact they commit these doesn't make them somehow not human.

@Bakensmile said: "To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?"

This is a logical fallacy called Hypothesis Contrary To Fact. Fallacy = error in reasoning. See attachment.

@Bakensmile said: "The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’."

See BBC Verify attachment from 09:43am this morning Wednesday 18th October 2023.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

@Bakensmile said: "How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone."

I posted information that explains how it was possible for Israel not to see the 7th October 2023 attack coming.

Here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/4915775-i-do-not-believe-intelligence-forces-knew-nothing?reply=130001832

@Bakensmile said: "What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?"

Rocket misfires from Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have been observed over the years. These are quite common because they themselves make them in Gaza Strip. They are not made in a military facility.

Additionally, the United Nations and NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence as well as Western Governments have stated over the years that Hamas have used civilians as human shields and civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals where they've stored weapons

👏 👏

I think I should add that I am vehemently opposed to Hamas, what they did was disgusting. They are animals and I pray for the safe release of those innocent hostages. However I still do not believe it is a green light for Israel to go after Hamas NO MATTER WHAT THE CIVILIAN COST. Israel, as the Occupier, and an actual recognised nation state has certain obligations under international law. I guess it comes down to what you believe is proportional.

They've just released the audio of Hamas admitting it was them who fired the missile from the cemetary behind the hospital. Hamas, yet again, murdering children, but this time their own.

So it mis-fired

Non-sequitur Fallacy = It Doesn't Follow.

Logically, it doesn't follow that giving an order for evacuation of a hospital means you intend to target it.

It could mean you want it evacuated in case it gets caught up in any cross fire, accident, terrorist targeting and so on.

Latest update from BBC Verify attached from 09:43am 18th October 2023.

Reading all of these threads I'm left with a further understanding of the regional problems and passions on both sides.
Most of us on these threads have no particular connection to either side but we're all displaying a passionate entrenchments of our sympathies to one side or another.
If we feel this strongly then that should give pause for thought for those sides directly involved.
I don't think any of us will be 100% sure about the other sides truth however much evidence is bought to the table.
Whichever side is responsible for the hospital bombing, both sides are culpable.
It would not have happened if they weren't at war.
In an ideal world now would be a time to draw breath and talk more of peace.
I've noticed that word is conspicuous in its absence on all of these threads.
It's as if the only outcome of this situation is for one side to win and another to lose