Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?

1000 replies

Bakensmile · 18/10/2023 09:39

I don’t view Hamas as humans, they are pure evil.

However I am astonished at the atrocities Israel are committing and getting away with, I want to believe they are good and just defending themselves but it’s getting harder to do that. I have some questions if anyone could answer, I would be grateful. Before this gets deleted as that’s probably inevitable as mumsnet doesn’t like anyone questioning Israel.

Over 1,000 children have been killed since this all began. Why are Palestinian children’s lives not viewed as important as Israelis?

To the people who say Israel need to destroy Hamas. If Hamas had underground tunnels within Israel. Underneath Israeli homes, hospitals. Would you support the dropping of bombs and view the killing of innocent Israeli civilians as collateral damage and an unavoidable tragedy? Or do you think Israel, who has arguably the most efficient intelligence in the world, would find another way to obliterate them?

The UK and US wrongfully invaded Iraq killing thousands of civilians, some members of the army were raping women and in one case burnt a child alive. If at that time, Iraq had decided to bomb the UK killing thousands of civilians as a way to defend themselves, would you also support that?

The most recent tragedy last night at the hospital. Israel immediately took responsibility and were quite proud they had ‘killed terrorists’. They then deleted this tweet and backtracked saying it was Hamas, releasing audio between two members as ‘proof’.

How can they intercept phone calls between terrorists but failed to see the initial attack and massacre of innocent israelis coming? How is this considered as proof? The two people talking could be anyone.

Why would they claim responsibility if it was nothing to do with them?

What are the chances that a rocket misfires and just happens to land on a hospital that was supposed to be keeping hundreds of Palestinians safe?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
131
DownNative · 20/10/2023 18:41

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:03

I've said before that carpet bombing has a specific military meaning and that it doesn't fit with what's happening in Gaza.

Carpet bombing isn’t a military term at all. What IDF are doing to Gaza is shelling and air strikes. It is when shells and air strike missiles hit civilian homes and infrastructure- including hospitals, churches/mosques and such that people start using the term “carpet bombing” it is a layman, emotive term for a sustained campaign of shelling/missile strikes that violate international law and cause the targeted people to fear saturation bombing.

Similar to Russia in Ukraine-

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/what-shelling-means-and-where-russia-has-attacked-in-ukraine-from-hospitals-to-mosques-1515393

That's not what I actually said. What I spoke about was the specific military meaning which is an unguided bomb dropped over a large area, e.g. USAF Operation Arc Light in Vietnam where 1,300 or so was dropped in 30 mins.

What airforces have done since is strategic bombing targeting specific places. It doesn't waste missiles.

We're seeing strategic strikes in Gaza designed to destroy Hamas’s tunnel network they built under civilian homes and infrastructure. Tunnel entrances are inside civilian homes.

That's the reality of how a terrorist group operates - like a parasite within the civilian populace. Not easily distinguishable from civilians either. Well, not until the very last second.

But most people use a highly emotive layman meaning of "carpet bomb".

The best thing for the local Gazan population is for terrorist groups to be removed.

Either way, civilians have always died in wars going back centuries. Its an unavoidable reality.

As Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi said if a "demilitarized Palestinian state had been created long ago in negotiations, there would not be war now."

We all know Hamas faked being interested in governing Gaza in order to secretly plan and surprise attack Israel.

A demilitarised Palestinian State is necessary for stability in the Middle East. Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's 2018 comments is telling too.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:43

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:27

It’s not Islamophobia. It’s the stated objective of Hamas to make the area Islamic from the river to the sea. It’s well accepted that some Islamic countries in the region back Hamas in this goal.

That’s not what it says. It says “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea”
That means a sovereign Palestinian nation state, which implies no state of Israel. It is overthrowing one state for another- with fears of genocide by both Israelis and Palestinians.

Nothing about “Islamic control” - which is a concept born of islamaphobia especially since we have just gone over the fact that Islam has as many sects as Christianity so there can be no unified, common, “Islamic control” by many “Muslim states” in a “whole area”

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:44

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:34

That’s not a prerequisite for Israel to abide by international law.

Do you think Hamas are justified?

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:45

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:44

Do you think Hamas are justified?

No. But neither is Israel.

Desertrose2023 · 20/10/2023 18:47

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 17:42

Does anyone know whether Palestinians know about the atrocity in Israel? Had it been censored within Gaza?

hard to know really. I expect they’re probably a bit preoccupied at the moment though what with burying all their dead children and trying to figure out when they’ll next have clean water to drink.

Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 18:52

According to sky news the aid coming in is actually being hindered by Israel for the following reasons

Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?
Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 18:54

Israel will not allow any fuel to enter Gaza which is desperately needed by the hospitals in order to keep the generators running

It's horrific

DownNative · 20/10/2023 18:56

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:14

Israel did not retaliate because the U.S. told them not to and were already amassing the Desert Shield coalition to invade Iraq- so basically it was a don’t respond we are on our way to attack them anyway.

Operation Desert Shield was the US Navy softening up Iraq ahead of the land invasion codenamed Operation Desert Storm.

My Father was part of Operation Granby - British Army code for the same thing as Desert Storm.

Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 18:58

THIS IS URGENT!!!

Israel has ordered Al Quds hospital to evacuate. An order it gives before it strikes

It's impossible for them to do so without risking the lives of the patients
Something has to be done!!!!
How can this continue!

Please restore my faith in humanity..Israel?
Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:58

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:43

That’s not what it says. It says “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea”
That means a sovereign Palestinian nation state, which implies no state of Israel. It is overthrowing one state for another- with fears of genocide by both Israelis and Palestinians.

Nothing about “Islamic control” - which is a concept born of islamaphobia especially since we have just gone over the fact that Islam has as many sects as Christianity so there can be no unified, common, “Islamic control” by many “Muslim states” in a “whole area”

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)

from the Hamas Charter

'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

Jupitersstorm · 20/10/2023 19:00

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:14

Israel did not retaliate because the U.S. told them not to and were already amassing the Desert Shield coalition to invade Iraq- so basically it was a don’t respond we are on our way to attack them anyway.

There is some truth in your first statement regarding the US "telling them not to" which proves my assertion that they exercised restraint under advisement. How many other countries would have listened? Shamir, PM of Israel at the time took am serious risk in deciding not to take retaliatory action and Israel should be lauded for this.

But there is much more to this than that.

Dan Shomron, who was defense minister and chief of staff at the time of the Gulf War, stated that the USA "assured us that the US armed forces would within days eliminate the danger of Scud attacks against Israel, while Israeli participation might well lead to a break-up of the coalition and ensuing difficulties. Should the US not be successful in eliminating the Scud threat to Israel, they said, the US would acquiesce to an Israeli response."

He further added that:

"As it turned out, all American attempts to hit the Scud launchers failed, and throughout the war Scuds kept falling on Israel. Raytheon Patriot anti-aircraft missiles sent to Israel by the US, despite a number of attempts, failed to intercept a single Scud. Nevertheless, Bush in almost daily calls to prime minister Yitzhak Shamir urged him to keep Israel out of the war despite Iraqi “provocations.”"

Your second statement that: "and were already amassing the Desert Shield coalition to invade Iraq- so basically it was a don’t respond we are on our way to attack them anyway..." is wrong as this would not helped the Israelis in the event of further scud missile attacks."

On the last day of the war a Scud hit a US military compound in Riyadh killing 27 and wounding 98. Israel was lucky that this fate did not befall them.

This time round, facing a different sort of attack, Israel will take no such chances and their defence of their country sadly means that loss of life is inevitable as Hamas do not seem to value the sanctity of Palestinian and Israeli human lives. In my opinion, the Israeli military action is necessary to safeguard the state of Israel as they are remarkably vulnerable in that area of the Middle East.

I do view their sorties as defensive as it is aimed at eradicating the terrorist regime which will preserve more lives in the future. There are many that will disagree with me and use terms like "carpet bombing", refer to attacks on churches, hospitals and innocent civilians and I will respect those opinions and not attack those who disagree with me.

There are so many reports to sort through, so many images and videos, that it is bewildering and difficult to sort fact from fiction. It's the digital age and the era of fake news.

I am extremely upset at the casualties on both sides and I pray for a lasting peace for all parties.

Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 19:04

Does the original OP @Bakensmile or anyone else want to make a part 2 to this thread? As this one is coming to a end

DownNative · 20/10/2023 19:04

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:32

Why don’t Hamas lay down their weapons, hand over all hostages and vow never to attack Israel again.?

Because Hamas believes it is in the Ascendancy and that it can win. Terrorist groups never put away their weapons for any other reason than defeat or close to it.

Hamas has been planning this for at least two years, personally I believe longer than that considering they fooled Western powers like the USA and UK they were no threat to Israel. That takes a fair bit of time to do.

Regardless, there is NO way they're going to stop now. 7th October 2023 attack by Hamas was the point of no return.

Besides, who would believe them now if they vowed never to attack Israel again?

Israel wouldn't. No-one in their right mind would.

Desertrose2023 · 20/10/2023 19:05

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:58

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)

from the Hamas Charter

'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

Oh good are we quoting the Hamas charter now? really horrid and not very inclusive is it?
Personally I much prefer this lovely statement from Israel’s prime minister saying that Israel is not a country for all its citizens, but only Jews.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone

Netanyahu Says Israel Is 'Nation-State Of The Jewish People And Them Alone'

The remark made less than a month before Israeli legislative elections prompted many people — including Israel's president and the star of Wonder Woman — to defend Israel's Palestinian Arab minority.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone

DownNative · 20/10/2023 19:08

Jupitersstorm · 20/10/2023 19:00

There is some truth in your first statement regarding the US "telling them not to" which proves my assertion that they exercised restraint under advisement. How many other countries would have listened? Shamir, PM of Israel at the time took am serious risk in deciding not to take retaliatory action and Israel should be lauded for this.

But there is much more to this than that.

Dan Shomron, who was defense minister and chief of staff at the time of the Gulf War, stated that the USA "assured us that the US armed forces would within days eliminate the danger of Scud attacks against Israel, while Israeli participation might well lead to a break-up of the coalition and ensuing difficulties. Should the US not be successful in eliminating the Scud threat to Israel, they said, the US would acquiesce to an Israeli response."

He further added that:

"As it turned out, all American attempts to hit the Scud launchers failed, and throughout the war Scuds kept falling on Israel. Raytheon Patriot anti-aircraft missiles sent to Israel by the US, despite a number of attempts, failed to intercept a single Scud. Nevertheless, Bush in almost daily calls to prime minister Yitzhak Shamir urged him to keep Israel out of the war despite Iraqi “provocations.”"

Your second statement that: "and were already amassing the Desert Shield coalition to invade Iraq- so basically it was a don’t respond we are on our way to attack them anyway..." is wrong as this would not helped the Israelis in the event of further scud missile attacks."

On the last day of the war a Scud hit a US military compound in Riyadh killing 27 and wounding 98. Israel was lucky that this fate did not befall them.

This time round, facing a different sort of attack, Israel will take no such chances and their defence of their country sadly means that loss of life is inevitable as Hamas do not seem to value the sanctity of Palestinian and Israeli human lives. In my opinion, the Israeli military action is necessary to safeguard the state of Israel as they are remarkably vulnerable in that area of the Middle East.

I do view their sorties as defensive as it is aimed at eradicating the terrorist regime which will preserve more lives in the future. There are many that will disagree with me and use terms like "carpet bombing", refer to attacks on churches, hospitals and innocent civilians and I will respect those opinions and not attack those who disagree with me.

There are so many reports to sort through, so many images and videos, that it is bewildering and difficult to sort fact from fiction. It's the digital age and the era of fake news.

I am extremely upset at the casualties on both sides and I pray for a lasting peace for all parties.

Correct - my Dad spoke of Scud missiles flying overhead during Operation Granby. Have his Liberation Of Kuwait medal framed from the Kingdom Of Saudi Arabia.

Iraq ceased to be a threat when the Allied Forces went on land. IIRC, it wasn't a long war.

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 19:15

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 18:38

Our laws and the laws of all Christian countries are based on Christianity, just like their laws are based on their religion. You cannot pretend our legal system is purely secular.

For those who don't know, as one example, this is a small slice of Qatari law. You can judge for yourself how similar it is to 'not purely secular' Britain:

'The constitution declares Islam to be the state religion and states sharia shall be “a main source” of legislation. According to the constitution, the Emir must be Muslim...The Emir exercises full executive power.'

'Conversion to another religion from Islam is defined by the law as apostasy and is illegal.'

'The law provides for a prison sentence of up to seven years for offending or misinterpreting the Quran, “offending” Islam or its rites or beliefs, insulting any of the prophets, or defaming, desecrating, or committing blasphemy against Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. '

'To obtain an official presence in the country, expatriate non-Muslim religious groups must register with the MFA.'

'According to the law, unregistered religious groups (i.e., those not registered or under the patronage of one of the registered groups) that engage in worship activities are illegal, and members of those groups are subject to deportation.

The law restricts public worship for non-Islamic faiths. It prohibits non-Muslim religious groups from displaying religious symbols, which includes banning Christian congregations from advertising religious services or placing crosses outdoors where they are visible to the public. The law criminalizes proselytizing on behalf of an organization, society, or foundation of any religion other than Islam and provides for punishment of up to 10 years in prison. Proselytizing on one’s own accord for any religion other than Islam may result in a sentence of up to seven years’ imprisonment. The law calls for two years’ imprisonment and a fine of 10,000 riyals ($2,700) for possession of written or recorded materials or items that support or promote missionary activity.

Public bookstores are not allowed to sell Bibles.

The only religions registered to have their own places of worship are Islam and Christianity.

A non-Muslim woman is not required by law to convert to Islam when marrying a Muslim; however, the law considers offspring of such a marriage to be Muslim. The law dictates that a non-Muslim man marrying a Muslim woman must convert to Islam.

Islamic instruction is compulsory for Muslim and non-Muslim students attending state-sponsored schools. Non-Muslims may provide private religious instruction for their children at home or in their faith services. All children may attend secular and coeducational private schools. The Ministry of Education requires that these schools must offer Islamic instruction, from preschool onwards, although students can opt-out of such instruction; non-Islamic formal religious education is prohibited.

A non-Muslim wife does not have the automatic right to inherit from her Muslim husband. She receives an inheritance only if her husband wills her a portion of his estate, and even then, she is eligible to receive only one-third of the total estate.

Qatar - United States Department of State

Qatar - United States Department of State

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/qatar/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20law%2C%20unregistered,worship%20for%20non%2DIslamic%20faiths.

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 19:22

The above example from Qatar is simply a modern and therefore watered down version of the dhimmitude imposed on all non-muslims, including Jews, in the Middle Eat for centuries after the Islamic conquest. It's one of the fundamental reasons why the Jews, after centuries of such oppression, wanted to have their own explicitly Jewish state in which they would never again be a minority subjected to second class citizen status due to their religion.

This is also why Lebanon was given to the Christians by the French:

'After World War I the French established Lebanon as a homeland for Christians who had been hiding in its mountains since the advent of Islam...After one particularly bad anti-Christian pogrom in 1860—and subsequent intervention by Britain and France—the Ottoman Empire gave Lebanon’s historic autonomy the force of law.'

The Jews have observed how well being a minority in their intended protective state has worked out for the Christians of Lebanon.

Lebanon’s Discontent Has Religious Roots - WSJ

Opinion | Lebanon’s Discontent Has Religious Roots

The country was founded as a haven for Christians but has lost its purpose.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lebanons-discontent-has-religious-roots-11572561155

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 19:30

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:58

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)

from the Hamas Charter

'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

ok, but the statement I was responding too was not about Hamas. The statement was:
Most of the surrounding Muslims states are only really interested in seeing the whole area brought under Islamic control.

You are deflecting by making it about Hamas. When the original statement implies some sort of Islamic conspiracy involving “surrounding Muslim states” for “Islamic control”

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 19:32

Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 18:54

Israel will not allow any fuel to enter Gaza which is desperately needed by the hospitals in order to keep the generators running

It's horrific

And for the desalination plants to produce water.

Israel said they “would not thwart” aid efforts, but is seems they are doing so.

Desertrose2023 · 20/10/2023 19:33

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 19:22

The above example from Qatar is simply a modern and therefore watered down version of the dhimmitude imposed on all non-muslims, including Jews, in the Middle Eat for centuries after the Islamic conquest. It's one of the fundamental reasons why the Jews, after centuries of such oppression, wanted to have their own explicitly Jewish state in which they would never again be a minority subjected to second class citizen status due to their religion.

This is also why Lebanon was given to the Christians by the French:

'After World War I the French established Lebanon as a homeland for Christians who had been hiding in its mountains since the advent of Islam...After one particularly bad anti-Christian pogrom in 1860—and subsequent intervention by Britain and France—the Ottoman Empire gave Lebanon’s historic autonomy the force of law.'

The Jews have observed how well being a minority in their intended protective state has worked out for the Christians of Lebanon.

Lebanon’s Discontent Has Religious Roots - WSJ

Fascinating. I’ll need to update all my ex pat friends living the life of Riley in Qatar all about their dhimmi status. I’m sure they’ll be appalled and immediately flock back home to the UK.

good for Jews no longer having to face oppression. No such luck for the Palestinians eh?

Bakensmile · 20/10/2023 19:33

Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 19:04

Does the original OP @Bakensmile or anyone else want to make a part 2 to this thread? As this one is coming to a end

Hi parking,

I’ve been quiet on this thread soaking everything in. Thank you to everyone who shared informative links. I haven’t responded or posted as my heart is extremely heavy for the hostages and the people of Palestine.

Not that it makes a difference but I came to the personal conclusion that there is absolutely nothing, and I mean NOTHING that can ever justify what Israel is doing to the Palestinian children. I can’t even comprehend the level of suffering and it’s just not justifiable at all. I think for me that’s all that really matters. The history is complex, the attack on Israel was absolutely awful and still ongoing with the hostages, the way Palestinians have been treated for many years is awful but I could read a thousand links and I’ve realised that, for me, it makes no difference there’s nothing that’s going to make me say ‘ahh yes now I understand why Israel is doing this and I support them, shame about the innocents though’. Not going to happen and tbh I despair at anyone who does.

I’m actively trying to avoid social media and the videos circulating but I have stumbled across a few of Palestinian children (and babies) totally and utterly traumatised and shaking having seen their parents, siblings, friends and neighbours killed. The sad thing is, in 10/15 years time if these traumatised little innocent boys survive this, they are potentially going to grow up into very very angry, troubled young men and if Hamas is destroyed it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if the next generation form another terrorist organisation. And honestly, who can blame them? They will have no access to therapy, no healing in the living conditions and circumstances they face. I fear this will be a vicious circle.

I won’t be starting another thread, feel free to do so. My heart is just so heavy and I’m finding it insane seeing the support Israel is getting. Praying for the victims of the attack in Israel, the hostages and all the Palestinian people, especially those poor children.

OP posts:
Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 19:35

@Desertrose2023

If I had wanted to say that non-muslims were dhimmis in Qatar I would have said so. As you know.

Desertrose2023 · 20/10/2023 19:37

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 19:35

@Desertrose2023

If I had wanted to say that non-muslims were dhimmis in Qatar I would have said so. As you know.

But can you say the word dhimmi again? I’m just not sure I’ve heard it enough.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 19:38

Maatandosiris · 20/10/2023 18:05

But what’s the story they’ve been fed? No doubt they’ve been radicalised? Do they know about burning children alive?

Shani Louk was found alive in a Gazan hospital. Don’t know if she has survived the bombardment, or blockade of medical supplies, electricity and water.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 19:40

DownNative · 20/10/2023 18:56

Operation Desert Shield was the US Navy softening up Iraq ahead of the land invasion codenamed Operation Desert Storm.

My Father was part of Operation Granby - British Army code for the same thing as Desert Storm.

It was also the deployment to Saudi Arabia.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.