Can I be self-employed as a nanny?

[tankie]

I had a job interview today for a nanny share. When I asked if the pay was net or gross they said they would pay me as self employed and I would pay my own tax/NI, and also that they'd pay me for their holiday but not mine.

I was under the impression that a nanny couldn't be self-employed, but they say their current nanny is? I've had a look at the Inland Revenue website but it's not very clear.

Iv been told by a few agencies and other people plus I looked on the Nannytax site which has abit about it and understand that you CANT be self employed as a nanny unless you work temp for lots of different families or your constantly changing childcare jobs (such as maternity nurse) not positive on that though

tankie - they are trying to pull a fast one

a nanny is an employeee - you are employed, therefore they are your employers and have to pay your tax and ni by law

they can be fined up to £3k and even possibly a prison sentence if they dont

their current nanny shouldnt be,and she is wrong to be se

mn/temp nannies can be se - you need to talk to a status officer at the tax office and get it in writing - i am both employed and se as i free lance and do mn/temp/night nannying - i choose as and when i want towork and what hours i do

i am also employed by my current nanny family

They are trying to get out of their responsibilities and I suggest an employer who wants to do that isn't a good person to work for.

Thing is I really liked them, the hours are perfect, and the ages of the children are just what I'm looking for. Location and pay are ok too - everything is great except for this one issue! I would be disappointed if they went for another candidate over me due to this.

I am a bit worried on where this would leave me over sickness or maternity pay though.

I'd agree with flowery. Anyone that tries to shirk their responsibilities by not paying what they are required to pay will clearly do their utmost to avoid paying you what you are entitled to.

Don't touch them with a bargepole. They'll get the nanny they deserve and you'll find the family you deserve.

no - agree with flowery -its not just that they are wrong re tax but hardly leaves them in running for employer of the year does it? and sickness/maternity pay would be out of question if you were treated as self employed

They did seem quite suprised when I said I didn't think nannies could be self employed - I have my fingers crossed that they'll look into it and realise I'm so brilliant they want to employ me properly.

You should get paid pro rata for holidays too.

Re. the self employed bit. I have seen several agencies advertising for self employed nannies so if parents ask agencies and they won't tell them the facts then what hope is there?!

If they don't realise you are amazing then they don't deserve you!

simply say to them you cant be se as a nanny and tell them they are breaking the law

wonder how much they pay their current nanny gross-compared to what they would apy you nett

for all you know, their current nanny might have told them its ok, and they dont know any different

if they wont budge, then even though its the perfect job, you dont want to work for someone who isnt law abiding, and no you wont get holidats, sickness or smp

I also agree with flowery.

I had a family who tried this but simply suggested that I wouldnt take the job unless they were willing to do it and told them all the details about Nannytax which they then agreed to do if they used such a site, maybe suggest a tax site to them and explain that its against the law for them to do this but you will take the position if they did it, it might make them think again... worked for me, might work for you. Its worth a try if you do want the job

or how about approaching them and saying that as your employer they are responsible for paying your nanny tax and ni - and if they are willing to do so then you'd happily take the job.

As this is a nanny share, presumably both sets of parents are not wanting to operate PAYE.
If they want to tell you what to do, when to turn up, that sort of thing, then they need to be your Employer.
Tell them that you are not able to be self-employed for their particular job and ask if they will operate PAYE. If they don't... walk away. While it may be the ideal job, if you are not working legally then you will not feel happy... you won't know who has control, you won't know what happens in the event of you becoming pregnant, etc.

I think you're all right unfortunately.

I'm talked to my partner about it and as he said, working without tax, sick pay, holiday etc would be fine if I only wanted to do it for 6 months, but this does seem like a lovely job and it would be great to have it for 2+ years. To be happy committing to something though I do need to know it's all above board - I can only hope the parents see it that way too!

I guess I could consider accepting the hourly wage they mentioned as gross rather than net, so it wouldn't be more expensive for them.

Yes, wage wise they should be offering you Gross rather than Net anyway, especially seeing how taxation seems to be changing quite a bit at present.
Remember that on top of the Gross wage, they have to pay Employers NI, plus they need to do the payroll paperwork (though could use a payroll company to do that, for a fee).

How can they offer a Net wage anyway, if they are saying they want you to be self-employed... they wouldn't know how much to pay!

Have you spoken with the current nanny? Why are they leaving the job? I'm wondering if Pay is a possible reason for them leaving.

I'm meeting current nanny and children next week - she's leaving as changing career. The parents seemed to think she was self employed though and said they'd ask her what she does about tax.

have you asked them outright if they will pay your tax and ni - just beacsue the current nanny does it now,doesnt mean they wont chnage

they honestly might not know it is illegal and maybe were happy to let current nanny be se as they know no different

Being self-employed or employed isn't a decision that either you or your employer can make. What defines it is the nature of your relationship with the people you are working for.

For a nanny, unless you are working lots of temporary jobs or something similar, the nature of your relationship with the people you are working for is one of employment. It just is, simple as that. You will be employed, whether they like it or not, the decision for them is either they meet their obligations as employers or they decide to break the law and not do so.

You don't want to have to fight them for sick pay, holiday, maternity pay, protection against unfair dismissal, redundancy pay - I could go on.

If previous nanny has been there for a long long time, there used to be a sort of loophole where a nanny could set up her own company and provide services through that company, which produced the effect of self-employment. That possibility got closed off by law though about 5 (or more) years ago - I don't know whether someone who set up the arrangement before it got closed off would be able to have continued it ... suppose it's a possibility.

Anyway, it can't apply now.

If they're ready to offer a gross wage, then all you need do is see if they are willing to bear NI liability too - in which case you'll be employed & it's all legal - though you will have to work out who actually does the tax calculations. You (or they) will have to set money aside from your gross wage, of course, to pay the tax.

Current nanny's been there less than a year - I think they've just been paying her and assuming she sorts the tax out.

i winder if the current nanny actually does pay her own tax

or just pockets the cash?

wonder even

i must pre read my posts

IME plenty f people doign nannying ask to be treated as self-employed/cash in hand and don't pay tax at all.

and thats the reason parents think that they can do this, as some people who generally arent trained or qualified or experienced do this and call theirself a nanny

tbh it does piss me off that anyone can call theirselves a nanny, and the quicker there is a proper register then the better

If the current girl wants to work cash in hand that's fine by me, she was obviously not planning to stay in nannying for ever anyway. But if you want a long term job it really has to be above board imo!

Maybe you could negotiate with them - explain your concerns re: self-employment not allowed for nannies, you're looking for a long term career so don't want to do anything that's not above board etc, and you could apply for OFSTED registration (assuming you meet the requirements such as current first aid cert and suitable childcare qualification - do you?). If you are OFSTED registered they can save a bit of money (i.e. they get a reduction off their salary tax and NI) by paying part of your salary in childcare vouchers if their employer offers them to them. They are obviously paying cash in hand (code word for 'self employed' in nannyspeak!). However, if they want a long term, English nanny, they must realise they can't expect to get away with paying someone like that cash in hand for long. Of course if they are not fussy and a short term overseas visitor with very poor English skills will do then they will probably have their pick of people happy to take cash in hand.