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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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Original poster

CMs: Full pay for bank hol even tho not working?

29 replies

Kerelene · 30/04/2007 12:36

Is it standard for CMs to charge for bank hols even if they are not actually working?

We have always paid for bank hols and not used the service, as it were, as we are usually off work and want to spend the time with DD. But as we are moving house I want to send DD to the CM on the next bank hol so we can get some packing done - am assuming that she is available as we will be charged for the day - so planning to ask her about this this evening.

However she has just given us the invoice for April and has charged for the easter monday although she was actually on holiday that week.

Does anyone know if this is usual practice? (I know the obvious is to check our contract but can't find it anywhere)

Would be v grateful for feedback - should I call NCMA maybe and ask them?

Thanks

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eachpeachnallyplum · 30/04/2007 12:40

I think most CMs charge for Bank Holidays, even if they do not work that day. I do. If I am then required to work, I charge a higher rate, which would be the same in other jobs.

eachpeachnallyplum · 30/04/2007 12:43

On the second page of your contract, next to the contracted hours section and rates of pay, there is a bit that asks if it is inclusive of Bank Holidays. This is where you will have agreed, or not, to pay for your CM not working on Bank Holidays.

Original poster

Kerelene · 30/04/2007 14:00

Thanks, that is useful. So maybe it's not so unusual. I will have to check contract - will have to ask CM for a copy as I don't know where ours is!

Do you think there is any difference in charging for a bank holiday where it falls in your holiday period? - she was on leave for 2 weeks and bank hol fell in that period so I was surprised she charged for it even if we usually pay for her not working on bank hols - or does it make no difference?

OP posts:

Original poster

Kerelene · 30/04/2007 14:04

As I work part-time I get bank holidays pro rata'd to my hours ie I work a 0.6 post so i get 66 per cent of the bank hols. This would be the same with most jobs.

I guess the same principles should apply to CMs - if you employ someone f/t you pay for them to not work on all the bank hols, if you employ them part-time you pay for a proportion?

OP posts:

lunavix · 30/04/2007 14:05

I charge full for bank holidays but do not work them. It's standard around here.

If I choose my 20 days holiday (I tell parents I have up to 20 days a year) I wouldn't include a bank holiday as one of those, I'd have the days around it (I charge half for my holiday) so I'd have x amount of days at half pay, and the bank holiday as full pay. It might seem cheeky but it's in the contracts, plus it's how most people are paid in average jobs too.

bonkerz · 30/04/2007 14:07

Normal for me too im afarid. I do usually book holidays off when there is a bank holiday cos it means i get one days full pay at least (I donbt charge when im on hols!)

lunavix · 30/04/2007 14:07

When I worked part time, I only charged for bank holidays when they fell on working days.

Eg when I did mon tues thurs I charged full for bank holidays on mondays. but not for good friday? Like how you wouldn't ask to be paid easter sunday unless you worked sundays? But then I'd get 12 days holiday a year.

When I did tuesdays and thursdays I didn't get any bank holiday pay. 8 days holiday a year.

I know some businesses do the pro rata thing (I remember I worked at tesco and they did) but most CMs wouldn't do that.

OrmIrian · 30/04/2007 14:09

How does this differ from other self-employed people though? My DH is a self-employed builder. He doesn't get paid for the days he doesn't work. Is CMing that different? You aren't actually 'employed' by your clients are you? My CM never made me pay for the days she didn't work but it seems that she was very unusual. I'm not sure I could have afforded her if she did Obviously I was very lucky.

PinkChick · 30/04/2007 14:25

but chidminders get paid far less than any other self amployed person and they have an ongoing contract with a parent, so its not just a one off job.
i charge normal if a child was meant to be with me on bank hol and double time if they actually come..however, to the OP, if you cm was actually on hol that week, SHOULD she be charging you full rate for the monday?, i charge 1/2 for my hols, which would have included 1/2 rate for the monday..she cant charge you full rate if shes saying SHE is unavailable??

Original poster

Kerelene · 30/04/2007 14:37

re Pink Chick's point - that's what I was thinking, can she charge when she was on holiday?

But if bank hols are paid on the understanding that you are paying the CM to not work, maybe it's neither here nor there whether they are on hols or not - as they are still unavailable either way?

I think I am talking myself into paying for it after all...

it is so useful to have other people's input, thanks so much everyone

OP posts:

PinkChick · 30/04/2007 14:44

Kerelene, what would you pay if your cm was on hol??half fee?no fee?
so say you weekly fee was £120, if she was 1/2 feee and on hol, you would pay her £60, not extra cos it happens to fal on a bank hol..tbh, i have almost slippe dup and made this mistake myself when i first started, but i reaslied beofre invoices went ou, so if she is totally unavailable on that bank hol, i would say it should be at her normal hol rate??.does that make any sense??

PinkChick · 30/04/2007 14:45

sorry about appaling spelling there!

em28677 · 30/04/2007 14:47

I think I am doing something wrong! I dont charge for bank holidays as Idont work them and if they want me to work they pay double fee. Also dont charge when I am away only if they go away then its half fee. Feel like I have been a bit silly and not charged right

princesscc · 30/04/2007 14:49

Actually I don't charge for bank holidays! I want the day off as much as they do, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not available, so I don't charge. Although, I do only have one child on a Monday anyway, so its never really been a financial prolem to me. The childs parents do work bank holidays though and use their parents on those days. If she really needed me, I would work and therefore charge (probably extra!)

PinkChick · 30/04/2007 14:52

em, you could always change your policies for any new children joining you!.i charge 1/2 fee for 4 weeks hols of my own, nothing for my sickness and full fee any time the children dont come hols/sickness /parent keeping them of??

Original poster

Kerelene · 30/04/2007 15:28

I think I've opened a can of worms here!

Pinkchick, we pay full for our hols but nothing for hers. So our fees are less for the month than usual which is good.

The new CM we are taking on (only because of moving house - as I am very happy with current CM) charges half for her hols and half for ours so if we have roughly the same amount of hol as her I guess it works out about the same.

On balance I am going to ask current CM about this last bank hol and see if we can negotiate but pay it if she is adamant.

As for asking her to mind DD next bank hol so we can do some packing, I imagine she will want extra for that...

OP posts:

Rachmumoftwo · 30/04/2007 15:42

As a self-employed person, they are choosing to take the day off. You are surely not obliged to pay them for this. It is different for nannies, as they work for you, but a child minder essentially works for themselves, you just pay for their services. You shouldn't have to pay for their holidays. In theory, childminding is their business, from which they pay themselves a salary, bonuses, holidays etc. not you!

Original poster

Kerelene · 30/04/2007 15:49

well to play devil's advocate again as it were, parents do employ CMs, although in practice they usually provide the contract.

OP posts:

wheresthehamster · 30/04/2007 16:34

Surely parents engage a CM or use a CM's services not employ one.

Employing a CM implies the parent is the employer and responsible for tax and NI etc when I assume the CM does that herself.

Normally if self-employed people are not available for work they don't get paid.

Well done to all those CMs who sound like they are self-employed and manage to get paid holidays!

OrmIrian · 30/04/2007 16:38

Well that's what I thought Rachmum. I didn't employ my CM in the sense that I am employed by my company - I gave her X number of hours work a week. Also I wasn't her only 'employer'. But I guess it depends on what is in the contract.

PinkChick · 30/04/2007 16:44

cm's are NOT employed by the parent, we provide a service for a parent ie: a plumber is not employed by someone needed a shower fitting, he is providing his service for them.
if a paretn(this is not aimed at you Kerelene) reads and signs a contract with a childminder, they agree to having read all her/his terms and conditions meaning they agree that they will pay a cm when they are on hol/bank hols and so on..you cant just decide you dont fancy paying when the time comes!
people seem to think/suggest cm's are out for all they can get, we work for very little money, are guided toward our charges by higher bodies(so ncma suggest what we charge for, we dont pluck figures from mid air!) as are we advised by local councils/other cm's in area to be inkeeping with latest changes etc..god everyone(again not you kerelene, i believe you are right to question this!)seems to think childminders are money grabbing and look for any way not to pay them!..the long irregular and more often than not unexpected hours we cre called upon, we drop verything(not many plumbers would do that unless you were geting asecond mortgage out for them!), we make sure they are happy, healthy, fed well, amused, cared for, entertained.the list is endless, but when it comes to payment!, goes down the pan

OrmIrian · 30/04/2007 16:51

I wouldn't dream of critising CMs pinkchick! Mine was a saint and the kids loved her. And I know you do a hard job. As it happens we never had a contract - just played it by ear as it suited us both. Ofsted didn't like it but she retired before they got too arsey with her. If we had agreed a contract I'd have stuck to it. I was just a bit surprised that it was normal to pay CMs for days when they aren't normally avaiable.

nannynick · 30/04/2007 19:01

As I see it, a childminder agrees a contract to provide a service. The parents either agree that contract and start using the service under the agreed terms, or they don't use the service. If that contract states that the CM gets paid on Bank Holidays then so be it.

Where CM only charge for the time they actually care for a child, I would expect the hourly rate to be higher, as that rate would include a portion to cover holiday periods.

I don't agree that childminders are told what to charge by anyone... as childminders are self-employed, they can charge what they like. However, as with a lot of industries now, consumers shop around based on price. Parents looking for childcare are not different, some will shop on price... but others will shop on perceived value.

ThePrisoner · 30/04/2007 19:38

em28677 - I don't think you've been silly in how you organise yourself. I know many CMs on here charge for bank holidays, but I know that it's not the norm in my particular area.

I don't charge for bank holidays but, after reading a recent thread here, said to my minding parents that lots of CMs charge for them. One of them, who has to work on bank holidays, said (very nicely) that if he had to pay me, he would hope that I would be available to work (which I wouldn't!) How would a childminder deal with this?

I am perfectly happy not charging, so I think you just need to do whatever you feel comfortable with. My hourly rate is slightly higher than that of other local minders, so it probably all works out fairly even over time.

trunkybun · 30/04/2007 20:44

Hi
I don't charge for Bank Holidays as my services are not available for the parents to use. They may have to find alternate childcare, and need the money to pay for it.........

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