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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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Original poster

CM Club: will mindee be viewed as a rising 5 ?

31 replies

Tan1959 · 16/03/2007 11:55

Hi all

I know Looneytune has just asked similar question but I am still not sure...

I have four year old mindee about to start after nursery/school care with me - mindee attends nursery 5 days per week from 9am - 3pm - will mindee be viewed as a rising 5 ?
Mindee starts in reception in September 07...

Thanks in advance...

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Katymac · 16/03/2007 11:57

He will in Sept - but not until then

dmo · 16/03/2007 11:59

mindee will count as 5 once they are in full time education 10 sessions per week

this does not count if it is nursery

your mindee will count as over 5 as they will be in reception from sept but only when they attend full time (as i know some schools do mornings/afternoons for a while)

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 12:05

Yes it does count if it's full time 5 days per week nursery. Have a look at the guidance notes to the National Standards. It's quite clear.

Original poster

Tan1959 · 16/03/2007 20:11

Thanks everyone - wasn't sure...

OP posts:

SHOSHAlee · 16/03/2007 20:20

Ok so my mindee who is with me full time but as I am accredited is the same as if she was at nursery full time i.e 10 sessions a week, 5 paid on the nursery grant is counted as 5.

What happens in September, when she goes to school mornings only. Does she go back to being 4, or do her afternoons with me count as the other 5 sessions!

looneytune · 16/03/2007 20:36

Oh god, you all had me worried then as although my enquiry was for school and not nursery, I thought that 10 sessions was 10 sessions, regardless of nursery or school

ThePrisoner · 16/03/2007 20:46

Children here start (proper) school when they are 4. They only do mornings or afternoons until the half-term holiday. They do not count as a rising 5 until they are in school full-time (I've checked!) - it can pose problems for parents who suddenly have to find part-time childcare for children who may have been at nursery full-time.

Tan - I don't think your mindee will be a rising 5 until he/she starts school full-time, and definitely not whilst still at nursery.

Shosha - I don't think your mindee would be a rising 5 until at school full-time.

Gooseegg - are you saying you think a full-time child at nursery counts as a rising 5? That implies a 6 month old who is at nursery full-time but needs collecting at 4pm would count as a rising 5??!

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 20:47

I would guess when she is with you Shosha during the day she would count as a 4yr old,
but you 'might' be able to count her as a 5 yr old if you have her for longer in the day ie for a few hours of 'after school' care.
I would count her as a 5yr old once she starts school. Some schools do the morning/afternoon only thing for a week or two but some start with full days from the first day. School is school imo.

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 20:52

Yes, a full time child at nursery who is 4 counts as a 5 year old for childminding ratios.
I had my last inspection in October and my own 4 yr old had just started nursery full time for the term before he started school. I asked the inspector whether he could now count as a 5 yr old and she said yes immediately and altered my certificate to show I could now care for 3 under fives.
The guidance notes to the standards are clear
on this.
I'll try to dig them out.

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 20:55

It states in the 'Guidance to the National Standards' for Standard 2.2-2.6 (Childminder Ratios)

"The number of children for whom you may care is stated on your certificate of registration. The following factors are taken into account when deciding on the numbers of children ...

... whether any of the children attend ten early education sessions a week, for example in reception classes, nurseries or pre-schools."

ThePrisoner · 16/03/2007 21:04

But surely that is only to do with how many children a particular childminder can have, not whether they count as a rising 5.

It wouldn't make sense to say that a child attending full-time nursery would count as a rising 5.

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 21:13

Only 4yr olds, not all children.
All I know is it worked for me and my inspector was experienced, not a newbie.

ThePrisoner · 16/03/2007 21:25

This irritates the heck out of me. This is, as far as I am concerned, another Ofsted-lack-of-consistency scenario again!

How come it's OK for some areas/childminders and not for others?!

gooseegg - does that mean that, if your own 4 year old was with you (day off, school holidays, before/after nursery etc), you would have been able to have four under 5s in your care?

ThePrisoner · 16/03/2007 21:28

gooseegg - I don't mean that you irritate the heck out of me, sorry!! (Only Ofsted!)

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 21:29

Yes it does, as my certificate came back by return at the end of October with the altered numbers ie 3 under 5's instead of the old 2 under 5's.
He started school in Jan and isn't 5 until the end of April.

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 21:30

No I totally agree. I wouldn't trust Ofsted to give a consistent answer to this or other questions especially after all the different things I was told when I moved house recently.

SHOSHAlee · 16/03/2007 21:33

goose, according to Ofsted as I am accredited I am no different than a pre school, for My over threes, as I have to do the same curriculum and get the same nursery grant for them, so if they count as over 5 at a nursery 10 sessions a week, then it must follow that if they are with me for 10 sessions a week,(which my child going to school in September is) than she must count as 5

SHOSHAlee · 16/03/2007 21:34

children here by the way go mornings only to school, from September to December, A long time to have afull time child only paying for a part time place.

gooseegg · 16/03/2007 21:36

I agree Shosha, except that they have to be 4 to be a rising 5, not 3, so your 3 year olds don't count.
Nurseries don't have rising 5's do they?? I mean aren't they just 4 no matter what age they are?? For ratio purposes.

Would you trust Ofsted to give you a clear answer?

SHOSHAlee · 16/03/2007 21:39

My child is 4 Goose but Ive been claiming Nursery grant for her since she was 3, she goes to school in September. The Nursery I worked at had rising 5's, most do surely.

We will have to ask Katymac what she has.

SHOSHAlee · 16/03/2007 21:40

Ive been trying to get a answer from Ofsted for 4 years as I have this problem every year, and if I hadn't had 1 child move this year I would have had 2 Rising 5's this year, which would have cut my income in September by a lot.

Katymac · 16/03/2007 22:37

OFSTED strikes again

I have been told that it is

a 4yo
attending 10 sessions
at reception
not nursery/nursery school/nursery class in a school

so who the hell knows

Katymac · 16/03/2007 22:45

I have done a bit of googling & receptin does appear to be the "normal" so-to-speak

nannynick · 17/03/2007 09:59

Personally I would ignore Ofsted (especially if it's only the helpline, rather than someone actually in the know), and instead refer to Childminding Guidance (2004).

"The number of children for whom you may care is stated on your certificate of registration. The following factors are taken into account when deciding on the number of children:"
"? whether any of the children attend ten early education sessions a week, for example in reception classes, nurseries or pre-schools"

A session in my view is 2.5 hours or more.

Having searched extensively, I can not locate any other reference to this rising fives issue.

Those of you who are NCMA members, please can you ask your area NCMA rep to clarify the position... if NCMA don't know then at least they are in a good position to challenge Ofsted over how Guidance is interpreted. I can not locate anything of relevance on NCMA's website - surely this has come up before, so why is there no help for NCMA childminders on this issue?

SHOSHAlee · 17/03/2007 15:33

Nick I have been asking NCMA and Ofsted this question for over 5 years and have had so many different answers, nobody seems to want to decide what really qualifies as 5

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