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Can my nearly four-year-old use a HBB with seat belt?

15 replies

Fourhippos · 03/10/2026 15:50

Can a 3 year old (almost 4) be in a high backed booster with a seatbelt?
He's 105cm so outgrown his Joie 360 and is still rear facing.
Doesn't seem like there are many options out there.
Extended rear facing seats are too expensive for our budget unfortunately.
The forward facing seats only allow the harness to 105cm?
Found the Joie i-irvana max for extended harness but I looked at it in the shop and it didn't look as comfortable as the other seats.
I keep going round in circles! Why are car seats so complicated!

OP posts:
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Hopefulbride18 · 03/10/2026 16:49

What's his weight OP? If he's over 15kg I think he's heavy enough to use the HBB with seat belt. The other consideration is if you think he'll sit sensibly in it.

Fourhippos · 03/10/2026 17:40

@Hopefulbride18 He's just about 15kg but very long and skinny! He still has tantrums and cries in the car sometimes and he's very very strong so I'm sure he would slide down or wriggle out. That's why I want a harness for a while longer but I've read online they aren't safe forward facing so I'm confused what's best.

OP posts:
stichguru · 03/10/2026 18:01

Legally yes he can. Although bear in mind that UK car seat laws are based on the minimum that's considered safe, not on what's actually recommended as good practice. General good practice would suggest that he is rear facing for much longer.

He obviously won't be safe if he is going to wiggle out of the belt, and he is too big for a forward facing harnessed seat. To me this sounds like an extended rear facing seat is your only real option. Unless you can find a forward facing sear which holds the belt so he can't wiggle out.

https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules
We had a Cybex Pallas 2 for out child which is forward facing, using a seat belt. It has belt guides on the side and across the tummy which made it impossible to get out of, so maybe something like this? Otherwise go for the extended rear facing.

Child car seats: the law

The rules for child car seats and booster seats - height, weight, age, type of vehicle, car, minibus, licensed taxi

https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules

NameChange30 · 03/10/2026 18:04

How about the Britax Evolvafix? It's £159. It can be used with a 5-point harness for now and with the seat belt later.

https://www.kiddies-kingdom.com/toddler-car-seats-15m-7yrs/55792-britax-evolvafix-i-size-group-1-2-3-car-seat-space-black.html

NameChange30 · 03/10/2026 18:22

PS Another option is the Joie Bold (I think the latest version is the Joie i-Bold) which is a similar design and price. They are both good brands.

NameChange30 · 03/10/2026 18:24

NameChange30 · 03/10/2026 18:04

How about the Britax Evolvafix? It's £159. It can be used with a 5-point harness for now and with the seat belt later.

https://www.kiddies-kingdom.com/toddler-car-seats-15m-7yrs/55792-britax-evolvafix-i-size-group-1-2-3-car-seat-space-black.html

Edited

Sorry ignore this suggestion, I think you can only use it with the harness up to 105cm. So Joie Bold / i-Bold is best option.

Fourhippos · 03/10/2026 18:56

@NameChange30 thanks I will look at the i-bold

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Llamadramarama · 03/10/2026 18:59

No I wouldn’t. I’d try to explore other options especially rear facing. My nearly 7 year old has just gone into a HBB after being extended rear facing. It was worth the cost for us as my youngest who is 4 has just gone into it and will now be in it for 2-3 years.

Fourhippos · 03/10/2026 19:06

@NameChange30 I've looked at the I-bold and even though it says extended harness it still has a limit of 105cm.

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BertieBotts · 03/10/2026 23:46

Legally you can use a booster with seatbelt, yes.

If you feel he would be safer in a harness, I would use a harnessed seat. There is nothing dangerous about a forward facing harness, it's just less safe than rear facing. If your seat can't be used RF, and you have a choice between 5-point harness and high back booster with seatbelt, 5-point harness comes out better for children under age 4 or under 18kg.

If you currently have the Joie Spin 360, not the i-Spin, there's no height limit on it and he can use it past 105cm as long as his shoulders fit beneath the headrest and he's under 18kg. (RF or FF). IME this seat easily fits children up to about 110-115cm depending on whether their height is in their legs or their body. So if it's the R44 Joie Spin you have, just keep using it. You'll probably get another year out of it.

The Joie i-Bold is only harnessed up to 105cm. So is the Evolvafix. The Joie i-Spin 360 also has the 105cm limit.

If you're wanting a 125cm limit harnessed seat, Joie i-Irvana Max is the right model, the older R44 Joie Bold, or there is Cozy n Safe Excalibur i-size or Cozy n Safe Hudson R44. I don't know what the comfort is like on any of them compared with a standard high back booster. I do prefer the R129 (i-size) versions because they are easier to fit and the standard is stricter, which matters a bit more when FF, particularly with budget brands.

Now - there is an argument that it's not necessarily unsafe to continue using a height-limited seat past the height limit, as long as it fits and as long as the fitting method would not be compromised by excess height. Certainly, they are built with a bit of tolerance in case children carry their height in their body rather than legs. In the case of the Joie i-Spin, it is pretty much the exact same seat shell as the Joie Spin 360, which does not have a height limit but only a weight limit of 18kg. The i-Spin does have one further recline setting so I would probably not use the furthest recline. But I do think the seat is highly unlikely to fail from a child exceeding the height limit slightly. You would be using the seat outside the legal approval, so at your own risk. But in terms of construction, it's literally the exact same model as the R44 one which has no height limit.

In the case of the Britax Evolvafix, again this uses the same seat shell as earlier models of Advansafix, which were R44 approved and up to 18kg with no height limit. I have the Advansafix i-size, which states in the manual it can be used under i-size up to 105cm/22kg, or in a non-i-size position up to 18kg without height limit (as long as child's shoulders fit under headrest). This to me is fairly ludicrous because it is basically telling you that the height limit exists to get the i-size certification, it's not unsafe to keep using the seat past 105cm. Though I probably would not want to exceed both 105cm and 18kg at the same time.

If you're not keen on this, and prefer to look at R44 seats which have no height limit, Joie Stages is £80 on amazon and would be a perfect stop gap as it allows you to keep RF up to 18kg and can then be a spare HBB - I don't love it as a main HBB, and it only works up to approx 125cm, so you will need a full size HBB at some point, but it would work for now if you don't already have the R44 Joie Spin 360.

If you decide to go straight to HBB I would look at Britax Safefix as it is basically the Evolvafix with no internal belt, it's a nice fitting seat and because it feels a bit more "enclosed" my 5yo seems less wriggly in it and more sensible. It also has the hook between the legs to hold the belt, which some people like if feeling nervous about switching to HBB with seatbelt.

Fourhippos · 04/10/2026 01:55

@BertieBotts thanks for the detailed response! Also, it is the I size version I've currently got.

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 04/10/2026 08:23

Ah glad Bertie showed up Grin

BertieBotts · 04/10/2026 15:51

Fourhippos · 04/10/2026 01:55

@BertieBotts thanks for the detailed response! Also, it is the I size version I've currently got.

OK, that's a shame - it would have been a really easy solution if it was the R44 version!

If you don't feel comfortable to keep using the i-Spin, I don't suppose you have something like a spare R44 spin or Joie Stages or just any R44 Group 1 seat as a spare/grandparent seat somewhere? You might be able to look at getting the high back booster now, and put it into that use as the spare/second seat, and then swap it back once you're happy to use that seat full time.

Or a friend who might have one of these and be willing to lend it or swap for your i-Spin for 6-12 months?

I think Joie i-Irvana Max is around £140 at Smyths which is a v good price IMO.

Or Joie Elevate might be worth a look. I don't love this as a seat, because it's very basic, but it is extremely cheap at under £50 and for the R44 version, you can use the harness up to 18kg without height limit. It is seatbelt fitted and forward facing only, and fairly basic in features. It converts into a fairly standard HBB. Joie HBBs are good for safety and tend to get a good belt fit. I wouldn't want to suggest the Elevate for a younger child, but for one who technically meets (or almost meets) all the points to be fine for a HBB, but still needs the support of a harness it can be a good transition option. And because it is so cheap, it could be that when you are ready to change over to HBB, you could buy a different one if you prefer. The only thing I would say is see if you can get a fit check in your car before buying. The belt path is very shallow, which means in some cars, the seatbelt buckle is too far forward to anchor it securely and you won't be able to get it tight. But this only happens in some cars.

There are some stockists of the Britax Safe-Way M at £199. You might have already factored this in when saying ERF is out of budget, but I thought I would mention just in case.

Fourhippos · 04/10/2026 17:00

@BertieBotts I think we will probably go for the Joie I irvana max with the extended harness. You said it isn't 'dangerous' to use a harness forward facing (just less safe than rear facing), so why do so many in that Facebook car seat group say that in a crash the child's body will get pinned back and head flung forward breaking their neck?! I'd feel better having him in a harness for a bit longer.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 04/10/2026 22:34

I don't know. It's misinformation, TBH. I think they probably believe it, my impression of the car seat FB groups though is that a lot of people on there don't understand how to read research studies or differentiate good information from bad, and they often have a very skewed idea of probability. There are a lot of supposedly accepted truths which circle around and around and around those groups and nobody can remember who originally suggested it or what the context was, but often it's exaggerated, or someone made an assumption, or it was a misunderstanding that was never corrected, etc. There's also a culture of needing to present a united view in order not to confuse people and so that the group has a "clear line", and because of that, it all becomes very rigid and black and white, and real life (especially statistics and risk) isn't like that. It is part of why I left the groups because I felt like I was supporting misinformation and I also started to feel that the culture within the groups was toxic.

But in any case, there's really no evidence supporting the idea that FF with a 5-point harness is unsafe. In fact, as long as it's used correctly, it works really really well compared with the child being unrestrained, a seatbelt for children under about 4, or other kinds of FF restraint which are no longer used, like the American seats which used to have a sort of T-bar that came over the head.

It is true that rear facing supports and protects the spine much better than forward facing, and this is especially critical for very young children, which I assume you already know. By 4 years old, the chances of being injured because a child is FF when they could have been RF are much lower. They still exist, but it's a much smaller difference. You've been RF longer than probably 99% of parents in all developed countries, which is a really fantastic thing to have done. Even Swedish parents as a whole flip from majority RF to majority FF by 3 years, 9 months, according to an observational study by Besafe (in 2010).

There is a certain logic, which I understand some of the car seat group mods/admins subscribe to, and I can understand this view even if I disagree - they say that basically for each stage of car seats, you have a choice between various options, and why would you ever choose a FF harness seat when ERF seats exist. They generally say the same for why ever use a backless booster, when high back boosters exist.

I just think there are situations where other things, such as practicality, comfort, cost, can override - they do not agree, and this is fine. We can disagree! Smile

Some of the info about how young children have big heavy heads and FF seats pin back the shoulders, leading to an injury pattern of neck injuries in high speed crashes with FF babies and toddlers does come from Swedish studies about the benefits of continued RF after the infant carrier stage. However, none of the Swedish studies, not the original ones, and not the recent ones either, have ever differentiated between high back booster and 5 point harness. In fact hardly any European studies do. The studies which do this are mainly from the US and Australia.

I read somewhere that a company trying to promote impact shield seats was the main source of the idea (in online circles) that 5 point harness FF is inherently unsafe, or less safe than seatbelt use. I don't know exactly which company this was, though I could make an educated guess. But again, no studies have ever produced the evidence which would back this up, particularly when comparing 5 point harness with properly fitting HBB. In fact, for children under 4 and children under 40lbs (~18kg) there is evidence, both from crash testing and real world crash data, that 5 point harness is clearly better. After this point, which is roughly aligned, so we don't know if it's age or size that matters - it seems really difficult to prove much one way or the other, so it basically comes down to maturity of the child - ie, will they properly stay in a seatbelt - vs chance of misuse - a 5 point harness needs adjusting to the body size of the child and tightening properly each time it is used, can easily become twisted, relies on the seat itself being in good working condition, properly attached to the car and not too old, etc. So at some point, HBB wins out just because it is easier to use and the safety comes from the seatbelt, so far less chance of anything being wrong. There is also some danger to younger children from the fact that a seatbelt is much thicker and more rigid than car seat straps vs their bodies being relatively much smaller.

Neck injuries make up a small proportion of all fatal (or serious injuries) in all car accidents ever, even for children. Head injuries are the significant majority. RF advocates focus on neck injuries, because this is the major difference between RF and FF, but FF seats also work to reduce risk of serious injury and death overall. If they didn't work, Sweden would have been the only country ever to develop car seats because every other country started off with some version of a FF seat and discovered at some point in the 70s or 80s that they are pretty effective, and have been refining from that point on. Claiming that a FF child "will break their neck" in an accident is just not accurate, it is scaremongering nonsense at worst, or a complete misunderstanding of probability at best. The vast majority of accidents are minor and are unlikely to result in any injury at all. For a properly restrained child, this goes even for more serious accidents. The chances of neck injuries are small, and can be reduced further by RF. The chances of head injuries are high for unrestrained children, much reduced by any restraint at all.

If I ever want to make myself feel better about online car seat groups I go back and read one of the original 1980s US studies where there are some truly MacGyver style car seat set ups and the children - mostly - who were restrained, however bizarrely, survived. Then I think about how much better cars are now, how much better our seats are now, how much better our roads are now, how fatality stats keep falling even though not everybody uses RF. RF is worth knowing about, but it is not everything, and suggesting that it is, to the point of ignoring evidence or actively scaremongering about different types of FF restraint is unhelpful, IMO.

If you're going for I-irvana Max, which is fastened with isofix and top tether, the safety is likely to be very good, and if your child is wriggly and only just 15kg, I think it's the right choice - it would be my preferred choice too, I think. I have only just this past summer let my wriggly 5yo come out of the harness and that was because he is now too tall.

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