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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

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Original poster

how long till the hind milk?

28 replies

MamaChris · 16/02/2008 12:39

I am bf-ing my 2.5 week old. He tends to feed in 5-10 minute bursts, with a minute or two sleep between. When he's been on the same side for more than 20-30 minutes, I tend to switch sides (mostly because by then my nipple is burning and needs a break!)

But this week I went to a BF-ing support group, and there was a woman whose 4 week old fed (strong sucking the whole time) on the same side for a full 40 minutes before falling asleep. And the BF counsellor said to her that when the baby wakes, she should put her back on the same side so she could get the hind milk.

So my question - how long does it take for the hind milk to come through? How long does a baby need to feed on the same side to get to the hind milk, and how do you know s/he's got some?

OP posts:

lljkk · 16/02/2008 12:57

I think that's cr*p advice u just hrd (outdated at very least). Sounds like a recipe 4 engorgement 2 me, 2. I feed like ur doing now, & t always worked well 4 me (4 babies).

Only 2-5 minutes 2 get 2 hindmilk f u really think there ARE 2 diff types of milk. I expect Tiktok 2 b along latr 2 slam the whole idea, anyway.

Original poster

MamaChris · 16/02/2008 13:37

Thanks lljkk, reassurring - if you fed 4 babies this way, it must be ok!

I felt very bad for the woman they gave the advice to - she was there because feeding was causing her a lot of pain, and she looked ready to burst into tears when they suggested she put her baby back to a nipple that had already taken 40 minutes of suffering.

OP posts:

Lulumama · 16/02/2008 13:39

i think feeding from the 'empty' breast means there is more hindmilk in there, but i don;t think that there is any cause for concern if your baby is gaining weight and weeing and pooing as he should be....

i don;t think there is a point in time that can be pinpointed to the minute where the hind milk starts to come in, if your baby is sucking and coming off the breast satisfied, then i don;t think you need to worry

i think green poo can mean not getting the hindmilk and a tummy ache?

howbreastfeedingworks.com/tag/breastfeeding/

www.kellymom.com

are two excellent BF sites

kiskidee · 16/02/2008 13:39

firstly MamaChris, the woman who is the 'bf counsellor' at the group doesn't sound like she has the counselling training that any of the 4 bf charities facilitate. she sounds like she has done some bf training but not much as what she says is a common misconception about foremilk/hindmilk.

if you say taht your nipple is burning and you need a break, it sounds like your attachment and positioning is not as good as it can be so it will be best if you speak to or see someone from one of the four charities sooner rather than later to observe a whole feed.

if you go to this site, the numbers of the four charities is down the right hand side of the page. they will be able to give you advice over the phone and possibly one of their counsellors may live close enough to observe a feed.

don't be too preoccupied with how long your son is on one side, it means little. though it is better practice to allow your son to come off the breast on his own. It sounds like the woman with the 4 wk old is getting on fine.

congratulations of getting this far with bfing.

Lulumama · 16/02/2008 13:40

if feeding is causing pain like that there might be an issue with attachment.. and the counsellor should be checking that

mears · 16/02/2008 13:40

There is no designated time for foremilk however it shouldn't matter how long a baby is on as far as nipple pain goes. If the nipple is sore it is most likely the baby has slipped from the correct position.

Baby should feed as long as he wants then he will spit the nipple out. Wind him and offer the other side.

If there is an over production problem then it can be advisable to feed from one breast at a time - perhaps this lady did.

kiskidee · 16/02/2008 13:41

omg. no it doesn't sound like that woman was getting on fine. please if you can, pass on the information you have gotten about hte charities etc. she needs support from someone who actually knows what she is doing. unfortunately, some of the 'counsellors' in the community know just enough to make them dangerous.

Original poster

MamaChris · 16/02/2008 13:54

thanks for all the quick responses. I think there is an issue with attachment, and the health visitor has said he has tongue tie, which probably explains it. But she says as long as he is happy and gaining weight (he'll be weighed Tuesday), there's no need to do anything about it.

Thanks fir the links. The "howbreastfeedingworks" site has an article on tongue-tie on the first page, so I'm going to read up some more on it. But I might push for a more pro active response even if he is gaining weight (which I think he is).

OP posts:

mears · 16/02/2008 14:10

Are you happy though? If feeds are always painful then the tongue-tie can be separated.

mears · 16/02/2008 14:13

information on tongue-tie

Original poster

MamaChris · 16/02/2008 14:18

Feeds are always painful (as are most times in between feeds!), but getting less so as time goes on. Perhaps it will just resolve itself? But the thought of being able to achieve pain-free bf-ing sounds so lovely...

OP posts:

Nismy · 17/02/2008 21:35

My DS had tongue tie that wasn't sorted for 6 weeks (they don't do the seperation where I live for some stupd reason) I was in agony, absolute screaming pain until a wonderful HV told me what the problem was and where I could get it seperated. It was instantly better as soon as the tie was seperated, the procedure took less than a second and DS was feeding enthusiastically within two minutes. I was so close to giving up because of the pain. BF after having it done has been a lovely experience (well, apart from mastitis/thrush anyway ).

Naetha · 17/02/2008 22:40

Go to your GP with this printed out and ask for a referral to get the tongue-tie sorted.

My GP told me they wouldn't do anything about my DS's tongue-tie (he's also 6 weeks - terrible latch, gulps down lots of air, hates breastfeeding, not to mention my sore nipples) as he could take a bottle. If they can feed and are gaining weight, they will only do something about it later on if there are speech problems. However, the NICE/NHS guidelines advise the separation of tongue-tie unless there are any strong reasons not to. Make sure you push your GP as they seem very reluctant to sort this!

Jojay · 17/02/2008 22:53

Hi MamaChris - just so you know you're not alone.......

My DS very rarely fed for more than 10 mins per feed, only fed from one side, and would go a decent length of time between feeds.

I used to worry about it, because various books that I read said it takes 20 mins to get to the hind milk etc etc.

He gained weight really well and was exclusively breast fed for 4 months.

In the end I concluded that I probably had a fast let down, plenty of milk, and DS had an efficient technique, as he generally took what he needed in 5-10 mins. And it was great as I wasn't glued to the sofa for hours on end either!

I'm no expert on the finer details of fore and hind milk, but I would say, from my experiences, that as long as your DS is gaining weight, is producing poo and wee, and is happy between feeds, then I wouldn't give the matter too much more thought.

I would get your latch checked out though - but by a different BFing councellor than the one you've mentioned!!!

MommaFeelgood · 17/02/2008 23:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ChasingButterflies · 17/02/2008 23:05

Am sure I read something from tiktok on this v recently - will see if I can find it to link to as I don't want to paraphrase from memory and risk misrepresenting her! Back in a mo...

ChasingButterflies · 17/02/2008 23:07

here is the link to the post

Advice from tiktok here:
By tiktok on Thu 14-Feb-08 18:04:49
Sparkly, if the bf person tells you he has to stay on longer, 'in order to reach the hindmilk', you will know she does not know her stuff. If she's a 'real' bf person, she will (I hope) not say that. You might ask her to educate her dietitian colleague in this, maybe

When mothers were told they had to take the baby off after 10 minutes, even if the baby was feeding enthusiastically, that was when there was a risk babies did not get a 'good' feed. This has been misunderstood (by some people) as meaning babies have to stay on the breast for some minimum time - quite incorrect. Short, frequent feeds, cued by the baby and timed by the baby, are just fine.....and it makes no sense at all to try to get the baby out of this if he is doing well on it.

Short, frequent feeds (call 'em 'snacks' if you want to, Ms Dietitian ) add up to an amply high volume of milk, and research shows that babies who are fed responsively get the calories/fat they need - though the volume and fat may differ quite a lot on each single occasion.

Naetha · 18/02/2008 17:20

On a side note - I was able to find out how long it took to get to the hind milk by expressing - the fore milk looks like skimmed milk and the hind milk looks like full cream milk. I have a fast/strong let-down, and find my hind milk comes in a second "wave" / let-down after about 5 minutes.

tiktok · 18/02/2008 18:16

Naetha - I have no doubt that this happened to you. But this means nothing. All it tells you is that on that occasion, with that breastpump (or that hand expression), you saw that particular difference in your milk after that time.

You may never replicate that experience ever again, with a pump, your hands or with the baby

The proportion of fat in the milk varies with the degree of fullness of the breasts. Long gaps between feeds will tend to produce more watery milk at the start...and that's all anyone can say about it.

it would be crazy if you took that experience you describe and then used it as a benchmark for assessing intake when your baby was feeding.....hope you don't do that

Original poster

MamaChris · 18/02/2008 20:46

thanks to all for replies. I saw a different #bf counsellor today, who right away spotted the tongue tie, and offered to refer me on the spot. there's a chance we may get it done by thursday!

so am hopeful, and using this to get through a couple of days of nearly constant and very painful feeding. could be as little as 3 days to go!

OP posts:

MommaFeelgood · 18/02/2008 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Snarf02 · 14/03/2008 17:52

bump for my sister

BumperliciousIsStillNotDressed · 14/03/2008 22:11

This is a great explanation of foremilk/hind milk, I've never forgotten it, it really makes sense.

Basically imagine your breast to be a bottle of full fat milk, shake it up (not your breast! I mean hypothetically). That homogenised milk is what is produced, and the longer the milk stays in the breast the more the watery bit and creamy bit separate.

When I express in the morning my milk is always majorly watery and blue with probably a little bit of the creamy stuff because I haven't fed all night. There is still enough of the creamy stuff, it just doesn't come out at first.

ghosty · 14/03/2008 22:20

40 minutes?
My DD never ever fed for more than 10 minutes for the entire feed from day 1...
I never understood this hind milk lark ...
(sorry, not very helpful post)

chunkypudding · 15/03/2008 13:48

tiktok... my baby doesn't seem to have a 'preferred' length of time to feed for - he can be totally happy with 10 mins (esp in middle of night, yay, hope he keeps that!) but can also keep feeding for 20 mins plus each side if he's in the mood (something was up with the little fella last night, he actually spent more of the evening on the breast than off it!)

I guess this fits with what you were saying about feeds being dependent on how full the breast is etc? (well and how hungry/thirsty he is obviously!)

I just go with whatever he seems to want, it confused me for a while that it varies so much but he's a right little fatty so I guess he's happy with it... I'm pretty sure you can't overfeed a bf baby??

don't know how anyone deals with all their random new mum worries without mn - I'd have been truly lost a few times lately...

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