To actually feel a bit sorry for men who grew up in the 90s/00s?

[fetchmycatsocks]

I've NC because I feel this is a bit of a controversial opinion

But AIBU to actually feel a bit sorry for men who grew up in the era of Nuts/Zoo/'Shagger of the Year' awards? Whatever their characters, they weren't encouraged to believe that consent should be unequivocally sought and given. They had awful men feted by the media as role models. Awful behaviour towards women was celebrated and joked about, on TV, in magazines, everywhere. I can remember as a teenager really having no clue about what my 'rights' were as a woman around consent, etc - absolutely nobody ever spelled it out to me, or to the girls and boys around me.

I guess I'm asking AIBU to feel a bit sad that men who grew up in that era probably did have a bit of a tricky time working out how to be men?

To be very clear, I absolutely believe that all the decent boys and men worked it out fine for themselves. I just think - kids look to the world to learn how to be, and the world we grew up in taught us some really crap things when it came to this

I think I feel more sorry for women that had to tolerate (and still do) the ramifications of this glamourisation of abuse.

While I agree with this I DO also see OP's point
But yes, the decent men and boys figured it out pretty quickly

Well yes this.

As someone who grew up in the 70’s/80’s and was in my 20’s in the 90’s that not really true - men knew how to behave, lots of things I grew up with had changed or were being challenged (rape in marriage, ‘date’ rape, cat calling, sexual harassment etc.) I’m not saying sexism was still a thing - as it is now - misogyny is and was happily surviving, but most young men took all the ‘lad culture’ stuff with a pinch of salt - it was just one of many media spins not a blueprint for life

Poor little lambs.

Thank goodness now they have all the information men have changed their ways..... oh..... wait.

I see your point but I don't feel sorry for anyone who has the power in a situation and chooses to abuse it. I looked after children when I was a teenager - I had power over them, but as a decent person I didn't abuse it, even though I had no explicit training in dealing with children.

Men created patriarchy - I struggle to see them as victims of it, even though they are in many ways. The fact is, the power to change it has always been in their hands.

To be fair the porn they watch now instead is far more sinister plus the 'incel' stuff & Andrew Tate that's on all the social media sites.

load of bollox. don't sexually assault or rape. it's totally obvious, always has been

No, I don't feel sorry for rapists because they weren't told not to rape, no.

I think it’s fair to say the general perception of that’s “acceptable” has shifted. That’s not to say a lot of things weren’t wrong - as women we knew damn well they were but these things were largely accepted or were things we just had to put up with.

I am glad this has shifted but we still have a long way to go.

And I agree the decent ones worked this out pretty swiftly and changed as well.

Cat calling was mentioned and I agree it used to be very common especially from building sites. That is very rare now and I’ve worked in construction a lot and only seen it happen once and even then it was a young lad who liked to push boundaries (he was a twat and was sacked for quite a serious safety incident in the end).

A lot of things still aren’t great but now I don’t have to go to work and see a photo of some woman’s tits in the site managers office.

I actually don't think that's true to be honest I grew up during that era and knew loads of really decent guys. I mean don't forget the generation before was bringing us up and there were very strong moral codes in place.

I agree with this as well.

I think im a bit fucking sick of all this sympathy towards men who were never taught how to be 'men' given that they could literally just look at one of the millions of decent men and women who didnt go around sexually harassing women. The idea that there were and are no positive role models to me is so frustrating.

1. There are great men out there
2. There are great women out there! Who dont sexually harassing their partners! Why not take their lead from a woman, if they couldnt find a decent man to copy, seeing as 'not sexually harassing someone' isnt something only someone with a dick can demonstrate...

Yeah it’s so much better now in the era of Andrew Tate, the rise of the right wing and incel culture 🙄

Nope! As someone in my 20s in the 90s, I can vouch for the blokes who were decent and who didn't abuse women.

I agree that education was seriously lacking from parents and teachers about how to navigate the sexually liberated new world we lived in, but at no point was there ever a lack of clarity that making someone do things that they didn't want to do was ok - whatever it was and that included sex.

There was a whole load of behaviours that were tolerated in mainstream culture long before "lad culture" hit the scene - wolf-whistling, bum patting, knee squeezing, 'accidental' breast brushing etc. Benny Hill was mainstream TV from 1955 to 1989 after all! Lots of male working environments had Page 3 posters or calendars on the wall - the girls first appeared topless in 1970 in a newspaper that anyone could buy. The "top shelf" industry was huge. That's how Richard Desmond made his millions in the 1980s.

Decent men will always be decent and know how to behave.

Yes, but not sure this is quite the Gotcha comment you think - I could list all the things I feel more sorry for than men who grew up in the 90s/00s, it would be long and include all teenage girls ever, abused animals, lonely elderly people and many more. But here I was asking about these specific people and reflecting on how it must have been to be a boy at that time.

At that time I was a teenage girl, and experienced all the horrible results of the Lad culture

Male here

^^ This, I was born late 80's very much grew up late 90's early 00's.

I have never thought that because page 3 existed when I was growing up that its fine to go around touching women. I can understand that certain groups may have found it more difficult but my view is that anyone who tries to use this as an excuse is likely to have done the same thing anyway and just uses this as a way to convince themselves that they aren't to blame.

It is not society's fault it the perpetrators fault

I think since the 90s and (before!) it's definitely been wrong to rape someone! But I do think the drinking culture amongst young people then did cause some instances that were definitely problematic, but not necessarily seen as sexual abuse or assault by anyone at the time.

For example someone upset and seriously saying stop during sex has never been ok in my lifetime (I'm 38), but I think when I was younger going along with sex quietly, after being cajoled into it, wouldn't be seen by the men or the women involved as something awful. It would have been 'omg I went home with Fred again, he wouldn't leave me alone so I shagged him to get some peace and go to sleep' everyone would laugh and you would feel like a bit of an idiot but go on with your life. I am glad this has changed, I am not suggesting it was right but it was how things were at the time.

My friends and I got up to some questionable behaviour with men at uni that I could definitely spin as sexual assault or rape as legally I would have been too drunk to consent, but the reality is I would have been verbally consenting, having a laugh and the vast majority of the encounters weren't in any way damaging.

It's like my parents smacked me a few times as a kid, now that isn't ok, but they are older parents, kind people and it did me absolutely no harm. You have to judge things with the lens at the time.

It seems like we’re entering an almost puritanical era, and yes I don’t think it’s fair to use today’s standards to judge behaviors in the 80s and 90s when lad culture was all the rage among both boys and girls. And this shock horror attitude to men using their fame to get girls. Since when was this a surprise ?
I think we need to distinguish between illegal activity - rape and sexual assault - and just being a creepy old arsehole. Bad, but not illegal.
I don’t think the accusations against Walliams are that bad - it’s more the pattern, how many and how young some of the girls were, but if you’re 15 you can easily pass for 16, so I think we need to cut a bit of slack.

It did. I agree it’s a tricky enough time transitioning from adolescence to adulthood and there was such very mixed messages then from the media and the lad / ladette culture.

being groped on nights out was common place, as was a dirty old man leering at you, being beeped at walking down the street, certain distant family members wanting you to sit of their knee when you were far to old too, wasn’t uncommon to see women going out dressed as school girls, it was a gross time for women but the norm for men.

I could probably get many men charged for their behaviour towards me back then, but that’s them being judged on today’s standards and not then.

Your last phrase sums it up very well, I think. Men created the patriarchy, but it hasn't served them as well as they think. Both women and men are victims of a patriarchal society - women much more so, obviously

We did grow up with them, and went out with them in groups-much better and safer for both men and women to do that, and that meant we loved and respected them as people! Obviously can't speak for all of them, but the ones we knew were lovely, and are now great adults, in some cases husbands and fathers, doing far more to help their partners than previous generations.
And luckier than the Gen Zs/ Alphas growing up with social media everywhere, and being expected to meet people on apps, not by talking to them.

@fetchmycatsocks in what way did the patriarchy not serve men well?

I see your point but as a man growing up then I didn't need it spelt out explicitly. Agree with those who feel more for the women who suffered and many who may still do.

Groping has been a crime in the UK for over a century. You wouldn't have to apply today's standards to get a man charged for groping in the 90s/00s.

Appalling behaviour was appalling to good people then just as it is now.