Reform banging on about the “establishment” constantly

[Tping]

Every single time they’re interviewed, they bang on about the establishment like they’re some edgy outliers, stalking the political periphery with their radicalism and anarchic spirit. They’re as much a part of the “establishment” (whatever the fuck that means) as the others. AIBU?

I’m not sure that they are tbh, they want to do stuff other parties are slightly horrified at. They are definitely not mainstream. I don’t buy the identity politics of Farage being an ex whatever meaning that he’s establishment either.

The establishment (does this mean our institutions?) is overwhelmingly left leaning, the rapid spread of trans ideology is an example of this to my mind, it wouldn’t have happened without the establishment being sympathetic to “woke” ideas, our police, our judiciary, our schools, the NHS etc. The expansion of immigration can be either right wing (keep labour costs down with flexible labour markets) or left wing (anti-racism, asylum etc).

To me the Establishment is personified by this privately-educated white male ex city trader. He's everything I despise. The patriarchy is largely responsible for the rise in transgenderism, and he's definitely part of the patriarchy. IMHO.
Edited to remove errant comma.

It’s laughable that Farage doesn’t realise taking bribes of £5 million makes him part of the establishment.

This was Labour under Corbyn and now the Greens often use this line yet those in powerful political parties are part of the establishment as they are impacting policy changes and work within that framework

Interesting how the right and the left of politics view the whole system as being corrupt yes its the very system that keeps their parties high profile

Former city trader Farage? Who was privately educated? The son of a stockbroker? He's complaining about the establishment?

Irony is dead

You think the Tory party are left leaning?

Yes, it's tiresome.

The establishment (does this mean our institutions?) is overwhelmingly left leaning, the rapid spread of trans ideology is an example of this to my mind, it wouldn’t have happened without the establishment being sympathetic to “woke” ideas, our police, our judiciary, our schools, the NHS etc. The expansion of immigration can be either right wing (keep labour costs down with flexible labour markets) or left wing (anti-racism, asylum etc).

This is a vast over-simplification. To be fair there is a left-leaning subset of the establishment: institutions like the BBC and part of the media, the NHS and parts of the civil service tend to have a slight left bias (not a hard left one). These are largely institutions which are backed by or supported by government. The "woke" thing and the spread of trans ideology is a recent phenomenon but a) it's been overstated and b) it's very much in retreat now anyway.

But you can't say with a straight face that the whole of the British establishment is left-leaning. For most of the past 100 years of our history the UK has been led by the Conservative Party. Despite the recent flap about "woke" the police are institutionally right of centre and always have been. The judiciary are not left wing by any stretch.

The vast majority of large businesses in the UK are headed by privately educated white men, as are the financial ecosystems that support them. Privately educated white men are still far better off and are far more likely to in positions of power than women or people of colour.

Reform supporters are not members of the establishment, for the most part they are on the lower rungs of the demographic ladder, lower paid and poorly educated. But Farage, Tice and the rest of them are absolutely classic members of the establishment.

Which is why its so galling that the supporters are being cynically exploited by posh, privately educated millionaires talking about "sticking it to the man".

Thats what I mean about identity, just because he is xy and z doesn’t make him establishment. Establishment would mean he’s part of our Institution but he’s not is he. I am extremely unlikely to ever cast a vote for reform but the idea that the colour of your skin or where your parents chose to educate you makes you establishment or anti-establishment is a bit silly isn’t it. I mean corbyn went to private school for a bit and is also a white man. Tbf I don’t consider him establishment either. Both want to disrupt the current establishment in different ways. Neither like the institutions or their direction.

Anti establishment isn’t just about political leaning it’s about wanting to radically change current institutions. That has little to do with your skin colour or schooling, it’s radicalism either way isn’t it.

I really do dislike this “white man in power” stuff and I’m a female ethnic minority. It’s feels so intellectually lazy. I imagine oeople would have said that Sunak was very establishment and he’s a brown man, what about Kemi Badenoch. We have to get past this idea that element of your identity that you have no control over somehow dictate whether you are establishment, unfairly possessing power. I think we should discuss ideas instead of looking at who’s saying it.

This remind me a bit of the red terror, the idea was that your class dictated your guilt rather than if you had actually anything wrong or not. You will always be guilty.

The establishment is the institutions that underpin our governance not the political party that currently governs.

Multimillionaire, private education ...

See also Jenrick, Zia Yusuf, Braverman, Tice, Kruger and their former mate Rupert Lowe.
All claiming to be the anti-Establishment champions of the working class.

He doesn’t mean ‘the establishment’, the definition that we grew up with (the royal family, BBC, Civil Service, private schools). He means a large subset of the population who have all become captured by virtue signalling, censorship, pro-immigration, DEI. Lots of the main institutions in our country have lots of these people in positions of power. He needs to find a new description. He is definitely not ‘establishment’ by his definition. Nor is Boris Johnson, Kemi, nearly everyone who works in the City. It is nothing to do with how much money you have or where you work, or were educated. He needs a better word.

not at all silly, no. It’s factually accurate. the establishment exists because of the old boys club and access to that club is based on social class, where you were educated, and your contacts with the powers that be. You can’t tell me Farage would be where he is politically or financially if he had gone to a comprehensive school and his dad delivered coal for a living.

Yes access to the establishment used to be via social class or social climbing (grammar schools, working hard). Now to access the establishment you have to have the correct views. The sociology has changed.

It’s as restrictive as it ever was. The (unwritten) rules have changed.

I actually think many members of the Royal Family are no longer establishment.

Exactly this! It’s a massive area of discussion. A lot about luxury beliefs, elite overproduction etc.

In this instance it does. Farage's upbringing, education and life experiences are establishment to the core. You don't see Reform running around looking to change the institutions that created the establishment do you. And they won't unless there's money in it for them.

I disagree. His socio-economic background place him firmly in Establishment territory. His anti-elite rhetoric is hypocrisy. He's a charlatan.

It doesn’t matter, it’s irrelevant, he’s held up as a figure of ridicule by the actual establishment just as corbyn is. If he were more establishment minded he would have just joined the conservatives.

I don’t think it’s money I think it’s ideological, lazy accusation by the way, people can grift and still believe they are fundamentally right. We see MP’s from all parties doing that. For example they want to have a system like the americans where you can just bring in new civil servents instead of inheriting them. That would be a significant institutional change. They probably want more control over the judiciary etc etc.

Yes - in the ideal world it should all be about ideas! My dream - and the search for truth. But for a long time some peoples ideas were excluded (poor people, gay people etc). Now other peoples ideas are excluded because they are pro-merit, white. It’s the same process - when some groups of people seize power, they close the drawbridge to the people that they disagree with.

Not really, you are assuming peoples ideas are bound entirely by their identity and exposure.

My parents voted Labour for years and then started voting Conservative. The ideas and their views of what the correct ideas changed. Some people brought up in extremely wealthy privileged circumstances will become communists for example.

I refer against to the soviet idea that just your membership of a class is what makes you guilty nit that you have actually committed a crime.

But that's a very recent thing, and an anomaly. And is in retreat now anyway.

To the extent that there was "woke capture" of these institutions (and this was overstated), it's really fallen from favour. I work for a large US company with a UK subsidiary and we've basically been told that any reference to diversity in any public statement is completely off limits.

I think the "woke capture" was largely whipped up by people like Farage and his outriders at the Telegraph to scare people into taking anti-progressive positions. Whatever "woke" there was in our institutions is now being rapidly unwound.

Some of that is good (for example the recent Supreme Court ruling on gender identity). A lot of the pro trans stuff was at best ridiculous and at worst pernicious and I'm glad its being called out for the nonsense it is.

But a lot of the attacks on "woke" are a deliberate attempt to attack people with progressive politics or any kind. And painting a few loons who pushed a pro-trans identity, some of whom managed to infiltrate already progressive institutions as "the establishment" is ridiculous.

The backlash, as always, is far greater than the movement.

Yanbu. He was in red trousers yesterday. The man couldn't be more establishment if he tried.

I think it’s a giant fucking grift tbh. If you are genuinely curious you aren’t fussed by the colour of the skin, the wealth etc. different experiences can bring to bear different ideas but fundamentally the merit of idea is what should be weighed. Nothing should be dismissed just because it’s a white/black/gay/male/female/rich/poor person saying it.

I think it’s a way to avoid actual discussion and having to think of an argument.