To think public sector DB pensions should be illegal

[OneAmberFinch]

Everyone seems to accept that it's obvious that the private sector, speaking very generally, pays better salaries in-year but the public sector makes up for it in excellent defined benefit (DB) pensions.

As in, you get a certain amount paid to you indefinitely, based on how many years of service, your level reached, average or final salary, etc.

Everyone acts like this is normal but it is actually insane!

Growing up in school I was always taught that it was a fundamental principle of a parliamentary democracy that one parliament cannot bind another. Parliament should be able to override anything a previous parliament did, so that voters always have the ability to change course democratically and nothing is locked in forever.

But having DB pensions for public sector workers is binding future parliaments into very large financial commitments that will leave them increasingly less wriggle room.

It would be one thing if they were defined contribution pots that were in each individual's name. That would operate independently and doesn't represent an obligation on future governments to pay out pensions out of future taxpayer money, maybe future taxpayers who have different priorities for what they want to spend the money on.

AIBU to think public sector salary culture should, if anything, be the reverse: high salaries now, because the government is legally not allowed to commit to future compensation in another government's name?

This. We pay for the currently retired teachers and the younger ones will pay for me. It’s also the case that unlike a lot pension- if I die a year after I take my pension the bulk of it dies with me, it doesn’t pass to my dependents unlike my DPS private pension.

This is it exactly: public sector jobs aren't as well-paid when compared to similar jobs in the private sector and there's no opportunity to earn performance-related bonuses. There's really not a huge amount of incentive to work in the public sector beyond the pension - setting aside thoe who truly believe in the vocation of their work which is, of course, admirable, but won't feed you when you retire.

So you would be happy for somebody working as a TA or school support staff and paying contributions for x years to suddenly find out 'oh, no, can't afford to pay you anymore, we have somebody to invade for oil/water/control over a waterway'? They wouldn't have received the higher pay you think would be given to them and not teaching staff/SLT/COO & CFO salaries (and schools do not have to give support staff rises if they don't want to already), but they could suddenly be told 'nah, you're on your own now' with rent and bills to pay.

Even better

closing them all and moving everyone to DC pensions would be the best thing for the country long term. But you’d have to significantly raise salaries now to get peopred agreement. And that would require raising taxes or a huge additional debt. So whilst long term it would look better, short term it would be much worse and politicians don’t believe people would vote for it. So they focus on short term stuff instead and kick the problem down the road

Totally agree with this and other posters stating not many people would want to do a lot of these jobs if there wasn’t a decent pension. Child protection social worker anyone?

We all know higher pay wouldn’t happen. LG workers have to fight for measly pay rises. Pay has actually decreased over the past 20 years when inflation is taken into account. No bonuses, gift vouchers or Xmas parties.

Why would it be better? The IFG report posted earlier shows it’s fiscally neutral.

It’s interesting when you think about other careers that are notoriously challenging but without public sector pensions, early years and carers are the main ones I’m thinking of. I’m not sure to what extent there is a recruitment crisis, I assume much more in adult/elderly care hence why we have sectors so reliant on immigrants?

This reads something along the lines of "I have a *rap pension, so should you"

Have you any idea how many people in the public sector earn buttons ? That the pension makes up for being a low earner? (As many people in the public sector are?)

Claiming mine without penalty and retiring at 55 later this year after 37 years nursing. Without it, I would have quit looong ago!

So public sector workers work for rubbish pay and pensions … these people already do awful jobs for terrible pay, let’s not take away all future hope! There will be no one doing the jobs our country so desperately needs .

When I was a junior doctor, and when working nights and weekend was paid one third of the normal hourly rate (not one and a third, only a third, significantly less than the porters and cleaners) we were told it was alright, because we'd get a decent pension. Like fuck are you coming after our deferred benefits.

YABU, and I can’t say why more simply than - it’s not your working fellow man that’s stealing all the money, OP!

You're being ridiculous.

Every time the government agrees a loan they bind future parliaments.

The government accepted the Marshall Plan in the second world war, a massive debt that we didn't finish paying until the 1990s. We only paid off debt from the Battle of Waterloo in the 20th century.

We could not run the state at all under your reasoning.

This 👏

If the voters of tomorrow decide that control of that waterway is critical to the nation's security and vote for that party, sure, why does the TA have a right to permanent employment forever even when there are other priorities?

I don't know what this has to do with my point, which is that I believe governments should pay the full value of the worker's work today, not tomorrow. Argue some other time about whether we pay TAs well enough or if they have adequate job security or if they're compensated appropriately for working in dangerous classrooms etc etc. But whatever number the government today thinks is fair, they should pay them that right now and not promise that someone else will pay half of it in the future.

Not because of working people and pension recipients past, present, and future….!

Quite different from the government of 5 years' time being forced to pay another 20y of pension for someone who retired 5 years before they even came into power and had no control of the hiring of.

Wait, what? You think it would be fine for an incoming government to cease all pension payments to 70 year old retired public sector workers? That's not how pensions work.

That's what I ve been wondering. More people need to save more themselves for their future. My DC, early 20s, have no belief they will ever get a state pension.

The thing is though - the government don’t manage the pensions do they?

And would it be fair to all those people who gave paid in to change their scheme when they’ve already signed up? Theyd get to 66 - you decide their pension is illegal - what do they do if they retire at 67?

Public sector pays lower salaries but better benefits. You’ve chose to work in the private sector for the short term gain.

You’ve chose just sound slightly jealous

I’m not sure you quite understand pensions

There’s plenty of money in the system, OP - you’re looking in the wrong direction.

The thing that’s flawed with your second paragraph is that you make it sound like the current government is getting away with paying less to workers today by forcing a future government to pay them more later, you seem to be forgetting that the current government is also paying for previous generations. Much more generously than future generations will get I will add.

The money being paid now by employees and employers doesn’t benefit them though, it’s benefiting the current pensioners. There is no pot

Are you also aware that for example the 1995 NHS pension scheme is very different from the 2015 scheme

But you're ignoring that many of us have already received lower pay for decades on the promise of our pension. And those pensions have already been raided and made less attractive. Unilaterally.