Mixed sex changing rooms?

[Whatschanged]

Has something changed in society around changing/fitting rooms in shops or have I just had two unusual incidents? Or am I being ridiculous?!

A couple of weeks ago I was in the adult men’s section of Next with my 13 year old son, he needed to try on some jeans, a very tall but slim lad, so definitely doesn’t fit in the children’s section anymore. Men’s is upstairs with the homeware, women’s and kids downstairs, both floors have changing rooms. He went in to try them on and I waited completely outside by the lifts. While I was waiting an adult woman walked in the changing rooms to try something on, I was quite surprised, and gave her an odd look (very British of me, sorry) but she blanked me. I thought, well it’s not the end of the world but I’d be a bit more shocked at a grown man going in the changing room downstairs next to the women's clothes when my 13 year old daughter was in their alone (I don't have daughters though).

This weekend I was in M&S, women’s and children’s clothing downstairs, and there is a fitting room, women’s underwear and men’s clothing and cafe upstairs, there is a fitting room by the men’s clothes and a fitting room my the women’s underwear. I went in the fitting rooms by the women’s underwear to try some bras on, and there was a lady loitering around the cubicles, when I got in I heard what I presume was a little boys voice, perhaps about 6 years old and a grown mans voice (could have been an older teenager or a fully grown man, I never saw them, but a broken, older mans voice). The ‘man’ was helping the ‘boy’ with the clothes and the woman was outside the cubicle asking how it was going etc. I was really surprised, why wasn’t the grown man with the boy in the men’s changing room? Or why wasn’t the woman (presume mum) in there with him?! I was there with my boobs out, what if I wanted a fitting? M&S has lockable doors but Next it’s just curtains.

So I just thought perhaps something has changed and now people just wonder in whatever fitting room they fancy, or is this a bit weird?

YANBU – men should go in men’s, women in women’s, children that require assistance should go in whatever changing room matches the adult.

YABU – stop being so precious, you’re normally in individual locked cubicles anyway so what on earth does it matter!

It's awful that you experienced this no wonder you are traumatised and I can see where you are coming from completely based on your experience.

But presumably the ideal would be a lockable cubicle in a single sex space? So that women who are traumatised by the presence of men in close proximity can also feel safe. Also this reduces the risk of men concealing cameras etc.

Yes, I did and got told ‘clear personal attack’. No point going into why I don’t think it was, as obviously my post can’t be seen or repeated now and anyway I’d just get deleted again.

I’ve been here for 17 years and never been deleted, nor have I ever reported anyone in all that time. I will not, despite the temptation, start reporting others for what could easily be deemed personal attacks on me, unless it’s extreme, because I won’t stoop.

Plausible deniability is the defence of many a sex offender.

If spaces were strictly single sex, men would have to have a verifiable reason for going in there. The number of men with a verifiable reason would be tiny, therefore a) you reduce the overall risk by numbers and b) it increases visibility and therefore identification of those men.

It has been one of our most effective safeguards for public spaces, we used to know all this. I don’t understand why people dismiss that.

It has been one of our most effective safeguards for public spaces, we used to know all this. I don’t understand why people dismiss that.

Indeed! Your point @BundleBoogie is the answer to those people who say "Well, a sign saying "Women" won't stop a rapist"

Signs saying women used to deter most men, and those men who ignored the sign used to be pulled up sharply by women, and turned out, and the women knew they had the right to deter all men. Nowadays, they know they run the risk of having the police knock on their door.

I'm not implying anything. A person's triggers are theirs to manage.

Ultimately - the business will do as it wants, if you dont like the service they offer then vote with your feet and wallet and dont put money in their coffers.

If I dont like the colour red; i dont expect the world to stop using red, i have to do the work to get to a place that I'm not triggered by the coliur red.

If someone has been SA'd then they can choose to not use the service of businesses with mixed sex changing rooms.

of course most of us won't "pull up sharply" a man just for existing, dont' be so ridiculous.

We are perfectly able to recognise and try to do something if we witness an attempted rape - even if it's just dialling 999, but no one - or most of us - are not so precious that we need smelling salt if we see a man.

No, we haven't got the right to deter a father, a husband, or just some random guy who is helping a lady friend - neither will we deter a male member of staff or ask a male cleaner for ID paper if we see him in the changing room area.

It's 2026, fathers are involved with their kids nowadays if nothing else, there's no such thing as a "woman only area", and husbands are involved too.

Most of us are will not ask for ID documents to check if a person is male or female. If you pretend it's obvious, you need to get out more.

Can you not read properly? No one said anything about pulling men up sharply for existing. They get pulled up in women’s spaces that they’re not meant to be in.

Despite what you keep harping on about, yes women do have the right to have spaces to themselves and fathers, brothers blah blah can and should be deterred. There’s other options available. You prefer mixed sex spaces, good for you. Give yourself a pat on the back. Many don’t and you don’t speak for them or get to give away this right in their behalf.

Humans have been able to tell the sex of other humans since the beginning of time, despite costume and dress. No ID docs needed.

If anyone needs to get out into the real world it appears to be you. Go and speak to some women who have suffered abuse at the hands of men and why they want their own fucking spaces back.

Ah!

The new women-with-male-young children- the -occasional-male cleaner (with a big sign and the door open) = the men are already in women’s changing rooms as a matter of course excuse

And no, decent husbands or boyfriends waiting to see what the clothes being tried on will look like on their wife or girlfriend, absolutely do not go into the changing area, they wait outside.

The only thing about changing rooms is they can feel isolated. I'm thinking mainly leisure centres here. I learned to swim and swam for fun in a Victorian swimming pool. The cubicles were lockable and round the pool. There was always at least one lifeguard on duty and generally a pool attendant as well so it always felt like you had at least one responsible person keeping an eye on things and who could respond quickly if there was a problem. The fact the next cubicle could have a man in it didn't seem a problem. There were no gaps between cubicles.

So I suppose I don't think single sex is always the safest. Of course you couldn't shower naked which some people might not like.

I forgot to say thank you for understanding.

‘Just for existing’?

It’s weird how you quote the ‘pull up sharply’ bit but then completely misrepresent what the pp said. Pull up sharply for being a man in a women only changing area/toilet or whatever it may be. Not just for existing at all.

In fact you’re kind of making the pp’s point for them, because you’re damn right we shouldn’t pull them up sharply just for existing, like we would be doing if they were in a mixed area. In that situation they would have every right to be there and therefore potential abusers would have much easier access. That was the whole point the pp was making.

@TheignT

That Victorian place is completely different though, with those changing cubicles, as it’s not an enclosed space, so it makes no difference if there is a man in the cubicle next to you, once you open the cubicle door, you’re out in the open anyway.

In the context of the thread title “Mixed Sex Changing Rooms”

“Mixed sex changing rooms?”

@Whatschanged s first post

Mixed sex changing rooms?
Whatschanged · Yesterday 10:26
Has something changed in society around changing/fitting rooms in shops ..?!

... I was in the adult men’s section of Next ...an adult woman walked in the changing rooms ....I’d be a bit more shocked at a grown man going in the changing room downstairs next to the women's clothes ...

... I was in M&S, ...went in the fitting rooms by the women’s underwear .. I heard ...boys voice, ..an older teenager or a fully grown man, I never saw them, but a broken, older mans voice). ..
... why wasn’t the grown man with the boy in the men’s changing room?
Or why wasn’t the woman (presume mum) in there with him?! ....
M&S has lockable doors but Next it’s just curtains.

So I just thought perhaps something has changed and now people just wonder in whatever fitting room they fancy, or is this a bit weird?

YANBU – men should go in men’s, women in women’s, children that require assistance should go in whatever changing room matches the adult.

YABU – stop being so precious, you’re normally in individual locked cubicles anyway so what on earth does it matter!

@Whatschanged (who has only posted on this thread(?) ) was not asking about mixed changing rooms but rather about what @Whatschanged believed to be (or should be) single sex changing rooms being used by individuals of the other sex.

I could ask you to blathered (< your choice of word) about why you think I care about you but TBH I dont care.

@Whatschanged

If you are reading...

In principle you agree with the other sex using what should be a single sex space how did the women fail your test which would allow her to use the changing room next to your 13 year old son?

What would make her "manly" enough to qualify?

What were you actually objecting to when you expected that same woman to use the changing room next to your (imaginary) 13 year old daughter?

I can understand that you have a very valid trama based response and why you would opt to isolate yourself in a secure area rather than use a communal changing room.

On a purely cold rational basis you opting for mixed sex area adds to the risk of being victimised again. You are opting into a "bigger" pool of potential offenders. Men sex offend at a much higher rate than women. A woman irrespective of her age retain a high level of risk of being victimised while a mans risk decreases as he ages into adulthood.

But a "PTSD" safeguard is never going to be coldly rational. How could it be. We will always actively seek to avoid the possibilty of encountering a very real prior harm (in your case the non-contact sex abuse with a specific place and the woman targeted in a way which trapped you there).

If a lock and isolation are necessary as something you need to feel safe you are always going to opt for that. Its a rational and proportionate choice.

I posted about LCs yesterday when @dizzydizzydizzy outlined her work place
The leisure centre I worked in had 3 changing rooms -
○ male,
○ female and
° disabled.
° The latter was one big open space,
○ the other two were rooms full of cubicles with a group shower in each.
Apparently the male and female is going to be knocked into one.

Here ^ the removal of the single sex areas to mixed sex redesign will disadvantage women.

The UK police data shows that crime and sex offending is higher in the mixed sex provision. If you were a LC user there you would be moved from a single sex cubicled area to a mixed sex area.

Creating a bunch of small properly enclosed rooms are expensive (from proper partitions to air circulation to vandal proofing etc) and most designers still cant even design in a space for sanitary boxes by offsetting the toilets in the ladies. But who knows @dizzydizzydizzys employer may be the an exception

And apologies for pointing this out but the doors are designed to be opened from the outside to allow emergency access.

But your needs could be designed into spaces if public (with private spaces) space design recognised that a large number of women will have been the victim of sexual assault and every day that impacts what they need in the built environment.
🌻

Of course most of us won't "pull up sharply" a man just for existing, dont' be so ridiculous.

In reply to

@ParmaVioletTea · Yesterday 16:22
It has been one of our most effective safeguards for public spaces, we used to know all this. I don’t understand why people dismiss that.
Indeed! Your point @BundleBoogie is the answer to those people who say "Well, a sign saying "Women" won't stop a rapist"
Signs saying women used to deter most men, and those men who ignored the sign used to be pulled up sharply by women, and turned out, and the women knew they had the right to deter all men. Nowadays, they know they run the risk of having the police knock on their door.

A mans right to exist in what should be a woman only single sex space.

We are perfectly able to recognise and try to do something if we witness an attempted rape - even if it's just dialling 999,

What should women do if they see that a man with a right to exist has choosen to enter what should be a woman only single sex space?

but no one - or most of us - are not so precious that we need smelling salt if we see a man.

That would be a man with a right to exist in what should be a woman only single sex space.

No, we haven't got the right to deter a father, a husband, or just some random guy who is helping a lady friend

That would be a father/husband/random guy all with a right to exist who choose to enter what should be a woman only single sex space.

- neither will we deter a male member of staff or ask a male cleaner for ID paper if we see him in the changing room area.

That would be a male employee with a right to exist who has entered what should be a woman only single sex space.

It's 2026, fathers are involved with their kids nowadays if nothing else,

That would be a father who will enter what should be a woman only single sex space.

there's no such thing as a "woman only area",

When a man with a right to exist enters what should be a woman only single sex space they choose to remove what should be a woman only single sex space by being a male in what should be a woman only single sex space.

and husbands are involved too.

When a husband with a right to exist enters what should be a woman only single sex space he chooses to remove what should be a woman only single sex space by being a male in what should be a woman only single sex space.

Most of us are will not ask for ID documents to check if a person is male or female. If you pretend it's obvious, you need to get out more.

When a man with a right to exist chooses to enter what should be a woman only single sex space a woman is to blame for not checking his ID.

What is a father teaching his daughter when he makes his choice to follow her into what should be a woman only single sex space?

What should women do if they see that a man with a right to exist has choosen to enter what should be a woman only single sex space?

not become hysterical and pretend he's a potential rapist for a start?

When a man with a right to exist chooses to enter what should be a woman only single sex space a woman is to blame for not checking his ID.
huh? that makes no sense.

ThatCraftySquid
What should women do if they see that a man with a right to exist has

not become hysterical and pretend he's a potential rapist for a start?

Ha ha.
”Hysterical” ✅

That's at least the second hysteria/hysterical on this thread.

Misogyny much!

not become hysterical and pretend he's a potential rapist for a start?

Really giving yourself away there @ThatCraftySquid

Most sensible women will be wary of any man entering a women-only space - even cleaners can rape. It's not unreasonable to assume that a man (other than maintenance workers or cleaners) in a woman-only space is either confused or up to no good, usually.

Either way, we used to be able to say "Should you be in here?" Nowadays, women can be punished for this.

That was my point. We had an old design that worked better, In my experience, but we changed it. Not sure why.

Well bingo!
(Clownfish for anyone missing that.)

Please do explain how a woman or man judges if the man is a potential rapist or not?

The NHS is likely to pay you millions for that little gem.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5475381-well-this-was-totally-predictable?page=1

Here ^ is a case where medical staff failed to become hysterical.

They also failed to work out if a man can be a potential rapist or not.

The South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust signed off on that little gem when deciding that trans and non-binary patients should not be given the same level of safeguarding as other patients.

@ArabellaScotts post details the policy here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5475381-well-this-was-totally-predictable?page=17&reply=149880412

They failed the could he be a rapist test at least three times.

The third time was after the staff placed him in a ward with the woman he was under investigation for raping.

But dont worry the woman had access to a phone that time and dialed 999.

By that stage she may have had a little mistrust in the medical staff acting on her behalf.

How about giving the staff in the Psychiatric Intensive Care Unit (PICU) is in Lambeth Hospital a helping hand?

The staff have to complete a comprehensive risk assessment to determine any known risks to other service users or the service user when placing members of the other sex on what should be a single sex ward.

The Trust and staff know that sexual assaults happen in hospitals so that is a known risk.

Is asking the question is he's a potential rapist just a hysterical step too far?

Or did the Board of the Trust fuck up safeguarding by asking staff produce an answer?

I could ask you to blathered (< your choice of word) about why you think I care about you but TBH I dont care

^ Gibberish

You obviously care enough to respond. Every time.

The language used is a givaway

Of course
○ most of us won't "pull up sharply"
a man just for
° existing,
● dont' be so ridiculous.

A mans right to exist in what should be a woman only single sex space.

We are perfectly able
○ to recognise and
○ try to do something
if we witness
● an attempted rape
- even if it's just dialling 999,

What should women do if they see that a man with a right to exist has choosen to enter what should be a woman only single sex space?

not become
● hysterical and
● pretend he's a potential rapist for a start?

You thing that post was for your benefit.

I’m assuming none of them were labelled as “men’s” or “women’s”?

I can’t say it bothers me. I love unisex changing at the pool, it never crossed my mind to care. If I’m swimming with my DP it’s much easier to both be able to go in together, share a locker, not wonder if I’m lagging behind and he’s already outside waiting….

If I go alone or with my mum it still doesn’t bother me.