Mixed sex changing rooms?

[Whatschanged]

Has something changed in society around changing/fitting rooms in shops or have I just had two unusual incidents? Or am I being ridiculous?!

A couple of weeks ago I was in the adult men’s section of Next with my 13 year old son, he needed to try on some jeans, a very tall but slim lad, so definitely doesn’t fit in the children’s section anymore. Men’s is upstairs with the homeware, women’s and kids downstairs, both floors have changing rooms. He went in to try them on and I waited completely outside by the lifts. While I was waiting an adult woman walked in the changing rooms to try something on, I was quite surprised, and gave her an odd look (very British of me, sorry) but she blanked me. I thought, well it’s not the end of the world but I’d be a bit more shocked at a grown man going in the changing room downstairs next to the women's clothes when my 13 year old daughter was in their alone (I don't have daughters though).

This weekend I was in M&S, women’s and children’s clothing downstairs, and there is a fitting room, women’s underwear and men’s clothing and cafe upstairs, there is a fitting room by the men’s clothes and a fitting room my the women’s underwear. I went in the fitting rooms by the women’s underwear to try some bras on, and there was a lady loitering around the cubicles, when I got in I heard what I presume was a little boys voice, perhaps about 6 years old and a grown mans voice (could have been an older teenager or a fully grown man, I never saw them, but a broken, older mans voice). The ‘man’ was helping the ‘boy’ with the clothes and the woman was outside the cubicle asking how it was going etc. I was really surprised, why wasn’t the grown man with the boy in the men’s changing room? Or why wasn’t the woman (presume mum) in there with him?! I was there with my boobs out, what if I wanted a fitting? M&S has lockable doors but Next it’s just curtains.

So I just thought perhaps something has changed and now people just wonder in whatever fitting room they fancy, or is this a bit weird?

YANBU – men should go in men’s, women in women’s, children that require assistance should go in whatever changing room matches the adult.

YABU – stop being so precious, you’re normally in individual locked cubicles anyway so what on earth does it matter!

You can email contactus@mumsnet to ask.

Posts are only deleted if they are actively reported.

I prefer the minimising posts to stand as they demonstrate the lack of concern about issues that effect women very well.

Males just keep out of what should be women only single sex spaces.

If they cant work out if they are male ask a doctor for help in working that out or take a dna test.

If the management of a service are allowing male staff into what should be women only single sex spaces and the males are choosing to enter that applies to these male employees too.

Eg
The male in Fife who has a medical degree and is let loose in an ED while claiming he was a female.

Or

The senior staff and male in Darlington who decided that female employees had a contractual obligation to provide a strip show.

Is it helpful if I reword this:

Males just keep out of what should be women only single sex spaces.

If they cant work out if they are male ask a doctor for help in working that out or take a dna test.

to this:

Males just keep out of what should be women only single sex spaces.

If they a male cant work out if they are he is male he can ask a doctor¹ for help in working that out or take a dna test.

¹ medically competent sufficiently skilled to either assist or refer onwards.

If that solution is applied there is no obligation for any employee to play guess who had a penis with anyone who wants to use what should be a woman only single sex space.

I am using the word "male" as at least one poster has claimed that some "men" are not men and should not be classed as men and should therefore be given access to what should be women only single sex spaces.

And the usual point has been raised that if we were all just kind enough to agree that these men are not "men" we must also agree that they are not like other men when it comes to sex offending.

As for females in what should be men only single sex spaces

If you read back through the thread you will see my post
(Unless someone has gotten upset with my questions and had it removed)
where I asked the OP
(who is "ok" with some males in what should be women only single sex spaces)
to explain why she objected to the woman changing next to her 13 year old son but would not object to the same woman changing next to her 13 year old daughter.

I want a lockable cubicle where other people aren't seeing me undressed. I think after my teenage experience that would be understandable. Maybe not.

Which part of this exchange

cinquanta · Yesterday 22:22
..
I don’t need your permission to use either.

AnSolas · Yesterday 22:30
I would not and have not offered my permission for you to use any space.

are you having difficulty with?

Is there actually any regulations about fitting rooms and changing rooms, in the same way there are about toilets needing to meet certain standards to be "mixed sex".

That ^ is not me offering permission.

If you choose to use a mixed sex space rather than a women only single sex space you are (hopefully) making an informed decision about the additional risks.

Its typical on any thread about why single sex spaces are provided.

Poster sneer at safeguarding.
Poster sneers at women who object.
Poster goes with men sex offend any way.
Poster claims some men are just not like that.
Poster claims that recognising that some men are like that is saying all men are like that.

Poster who wants to remove women only single sex spaces gets offended when its pointed out that that if they are sucessful in their aim it will directly result in men sex offending.

Etc.

We (I) dont report such posts as it allows the readers to see the connection between
dismissing womens rights to having access to women only single sex spaces and
dismissing women who have been subjected to non-contact sex abuse and
dismissing the fact that it was a man choosing to engage in non- contact sex abuse

You were subjected to non-contact sex abuse as a teen.

It should not happen to anyone ever.

The woman involved knew that by going to your place of employment she could victimise you as you were under contract to assist her. It gave her easy access to you.

Even now you remember what happened and directly link you leaving your employment with being subjected to sex offending.

It is more than understandable that you want a lockable cubicle.

This is why the safeguarding starting point is that nobody is a "safe person"

Ah okay, thanks, that makes sense. So keep the post up to show the pattern of behaviour. Let people not posting and just reading make up their own minds.

There are regs for employers (which the NHS is spending million+ fighting) which had to be introduced to enable women in the paid work force.

However historically UK social structure did not evolve from having communal spaces such as public baths but there may be some legislation from Victorian (?) Public health provision (before indoor plumbing became a thing)

The UK Equality Act makes single sex services unlawful direct sex discrimination except where the provider can argue that they are necessary and/or proportionate.

A test can be is the service provider risking unlawful indirect sex discrimination by not having single sex spaces. Or would the lack of single sex spaces result in one sex using the service while the other self excludes.

Yes

It also stops posters making a point and then claiming they had not made that exact point.

It also allows posters who may word stuff badly to address their own post to correct clarify expand etc. or even apologise

Regardless of what you say you meant, what you wrote looks very much like you are giving me permission to use mixed sex spaces. Just worded badly?

The extra risks, in my view, are minimal. Especially if I have my husband in there with me. Perhaps I consider doing this more often.

I use the M and S ones all the time. They have locks on the door and I have never felt unsafe.

😆

Ok.

You’ve joined the deleted club now @HagsRule !

I feel as though there may be a bit of obfuscation going on on this thread we have posters who are saying that they haven't objected to the existence of single sex spaces which excludes men.

However, if they don't see trans women as being men they do not acknowledge that the fact that when trans women enter those single sex spaces the spaces are no longer single sex and the risk increases to women.

I am in no way vested if you choose to use mixed sex spaces (with or without your husband)

@HagsRule your post has been reported and deleted.

You asking why posters minimise the non-contact sexual abuse of women by men appears the have upset someone.

Kind of proves my prior point :

We (I) dont report such posts as it allows the readers to see the connection between
dismissing womens rights to having access to women only single sex spaces and
dismissing women who have been subjected to non-contact sex abuse and
dismissing the fact that it was a man choosing to engage in non- contact sex abuse

In the context of the thread title “Mixed Sex Changing Rooms” and the OP, your strange response to my post “I sometimes take mine in with me, and vice versa.” suggests otherwise.

My starting point is a lockable cubicle. If two shops next to each other and one has a strictly controlled communal changing room for women and one has mixed changing room but with lockable cubicles I choose the cubicles. In fact I don't go to my nearest leisure centre but to another in a neighbouring town for this very reason. At the local one I can't avoid naked women standing chatting or having showers. I have no desire to see them and feel no desire to strip off in public.

I was legally a child when I encountered the pervert woman and don't want to see another.

Oh yes, so I have @eastegg ! It would seem so! Gosh, this person is determined to silence any criticisms and concerns about why they don't want women to have single sex spaces eh?! Interesting... Do you reckon it's worth asking MNHQ why I was deleted? Did anyone else get a response?

the poster perceives it as a personal attack.

which also speaks volumes.

If they could respond in a way which didn't demonstrate that women and girls are collateral damage to their world view then they wouldn't see it that way.