To think it’s turning into genocide in real time

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73]

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide.

What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this is also beyond appalling too. Its trying to wipe Gaza off the map. Over 500 kids have already died. Human rights watch have verified that Israel uses white phosphorus against Gaza, which is a war crime.

And everyone is just watching it happen.

“The Israeli army has just ordered the entire civilian population of Gaza to evacuate south within 24 hours. The UN says that amounts to 1.1 million people& applies to 100s of 1000s sheltered in UN buildings & their staff. This is impossible without “devastating human consequences”
Leaving aside the international law implications, I cannot emphasise enough how impossible this kind of movement of people would be. I have spent a lot of time in Gaza it is one of the most densely populated places on earth, there are pretty much only 2 roads south - along the coast and down the centre - they aren’t wide or well paved. I spoke to the gaza health ministry yesterday who said every hospital was overflowing. How would the wounded and elderly be transported? There is a massive fuel shortage how would vehicles drive? There would be no where for 1.1 million to go even if they got there. Rafah crossing to Egypt is not operational because of Israeli airstrikes.”

This is how Genocide is classified;
U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

• Killing members of the group;

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

The actions of both Israel & Hamas fit this description too. It’s just fucking beyond terrible. And it feels like some world leaders are just cheering from the sidelines 😪

@Revenants

"The removal of Hamas, Hezbollah, the Iranian regime and Netanyahu is what I wish. Extremism has no place in a secular society."

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Removing the bad guys is one thing but the problem as the US found out in Iraq and Afghanistan or Europe found out in Libya is that the replacement regime can be a lot worse.

If Israel got rid of Hamas then they would most likely be replaced y Palestinian Islamic Jihad who are more extreme again and who enjoy more support from ordinary Palestinians than Hamas does.

Absolutely and the US' report into 9/11 made it very clear they had multiple security failings.

Report into US intelligence failures here:

oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/0506/chapter5.htm

It may provide insight into the Israeli failures. It doesn't mean its an automatic Israeli false flag or anything like that - that kind of conspiracy theory would need proper evidence, not speculation and speculation inevitably benefits terrorist groups as they seek to undermine public confidence in States' intelligence agencies.

The United States has since learned from it and Israel will learn from theirs.

It is at this point of conspiracy theorising that any credibility is gone

Agree, but at the same time it’s not impossible to conceive that Netanyahu, with failing support, would intentionally lead Israel into a false sense of security, to attract an attack to bolster his own personal standing. I hope freedom of anonymous speech allows me to say such.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad are smaller than Hamas and i would expect them to be involved in the coming ground incursion too.

Any of the terrorist groups in Gaza run the risk of losing support if they run. I expect them to stand and try to fight the Israel Defense Force.

Israel plan to cut off Gaza afterwards and my feeling is they'll focus on a political settlement with Palestinian Authority in a land for peace deal. Israel will prefer it if Gaza was no longer armed as will surrounding States.

That's just my opinion.

Agree, but at the same time it’s not impossible to conceive that Netanyahu, with failing support, would intentionally lead Israel into a false sense of security, to attract an attack to bolster his own personal standing. I hope freedom of anonymous speech allows me to say such.

If that was the plan it's failed miserably. Apparently 4 out of 5 Israelis blame him for the attack (in terms of the security failings).

“Your view points are too extreme and detached from both reality and the views ordinary people”

Hmm, are you sure about that? Please see attached.

This is my last post on the matter as I feel this is derailing the thread.

Are there any more moderate parties in gaza

Are there any more moderate parties in gaza

I don't think Hamas encouraged opposition parties (understatement).

I hope freedom of anonymous speech allows me to say such.

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Freedom of speech does indeed allow you to say such things but even that comment demonstrates that you recognise your views are at best on the extreme or more simply batshit insane which is why you hide behind anonymity.

The conspiracy theorists generally only seem to exist or at least espouse their views in the West and particularly in the US and UK. In other countries they are simply viewed as dangerous nut jobs.

They genuinely cannot accept that major events can have simple explanations for example Princess Diana died in a car crash because the driver was drunk, traveling too fast and she wasn't wearing seatbelt and not because of some secret royal family plot.

Such theorists also react to evidence based criticism by dismissing the facts as fake and revelling in a "ah I know better than you" sense of superiority which only reinforces their views.

In this way they resemble a religious cult.

Yes, Israel nurtured a monster:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o7grSsuFSS0&ab_channel=TheIntercept

I meant to say the Israeli government.

None. The closest was Palestinian Authority's Fatah, but Hamas won the 2006 election and saw them off in 2007 via....yes....fighting.

Fatah has their own armed wing - Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

Hamas is the only current power in Gaza.

Russia has reasonably successfully suppressed its Chechen jihadists though. They put a local strongman in charge who's Chechen, unpleasant, but loyal to Putin, and he seems to prevent the terrorist attacks on Russia. Maybe Europeans and Americans are just not willing/able to do similar?

On the other hand temporary suppression is maybe not much of a success, given the Chechen jihadists have been going since 1785 at least.

'In 1784, Sheikh Mansur, now a respected imam, journeyed back to Chechnya and became upset with the Russian encroachment in the North Caucasus. He ordered the remaining non-Muslim Chechens to stop practicing many of their old pagan traditions with the cult of the dead and to stop smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol.

He also influenced Islamic concepts into social conventions (adat) and preached them to attempt Islamic unity. This was not easy in a land where people had lived under ancient traditions, customs and religions. Islamic tradition in Chechnya, especially in the mountainous areas, was not as strong as it was in Dagestan. But the holy war that he declared was an attempt at unity among the Chechen teips.'

Sheikh Mansur - Wikipedia

If that was the plan it's failed miserably. Apparently 4 out of 5 Israelis blame him

And yet four out of five appear to be backing him in committing war crimes and possibly genocide now, it seems.

@Pollyputhekettleon thinking more broadly (or rambling, I'm tired), I feel that a lot of the reaction to this conflict relates to how much footage is available online coupled with western Gen Z who have been brought up very sheltered from the harsher spects of the world and don't realise that in an historical context, their lives of peaceful prosperity are not the norm. They need events to fit their narrative in order to make sense of them. But they have little understanding of just how culturally different other parts of the world are.

@Dispairrepair

Are there any more moderate parties in gaza

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Do historically there has been a cycle in Palestinian politics. The PLO (which later turned into Fatah) started out as a clear cut terrorist organisation although they did have their sympathisers in the West.

After decades of conflict with Israel and peace negotiation efforts they recognised that Israel wasn't going away and they moderated their views to accept Israel's existence. Plus the leadership simply got older and less angry but importantly also corrupt.

The lot of the ordinary Palestinians however didn't improve and couldn't really criticise their leaders (which might well get you shot). So they started to support more extreme representatives such as Hamas.

However these in turn have become corrupt and will eventually either be removed or have to reach some form of acceptance with Israel.

This in turn sets up support for a more extreme representatives and so on. More simply governing a country and putting in place sanitation, education, health care etc is difficult, dull and unlikely to get you much support. However being "resistance fighters " against a bigger and wealthier enemy does get you support.

This in turn sets up support for a more extreme representatives and so on

Well the people of Gaza are actually being exterminated right now as I type this, so I’m more focused on that myself, rather than self indulgent analysis

@Pollyputhekettleon

"Russia has reasonably successfully suppressed its Chechen jihadists though. They put a local strongman in charge who's Chechen, unpleasant, but loyal to Putin, and he seems to prevent the terrorist attacks on Russia. Maybe Europeans and Americans are just not willing/able to do similar"

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The simple answer is that in modern Western democracies this is just not possible. Any support from the US or UK for an unpleasant dictator would be heavily criticised by the press and electorate.

That said it used to be the favoured British Empire approach of steal a country then find a local strongman and give his side guns.

Then when the local strongman starts getting ideas of his own and turning against the British then get rid of him and replace him with his rival and give him guns and so on.

@Revenants i make no apologies for sharing that video. Like I said in another post, that’s the fucking reality of what is happening. Kids are being maimed, losing parents and traumatised for life. We should be standing up and putting pressure on the government to push for an immediate ceasefire.

Enough. It’s beyond dreadful.

I'm sure the years of apartheid and now genocide will make ordinary Palestinians sympathise with moderate leaders. That's always what's happened in the past in situations like this 🙄

The footage coming out of Gaza continues to be soul destroying. The video of a little girl whose mother was killed screaming for her mama, a newborn twitching while they die, children being blown to bits or filmed injured and in shock. It's horrifying.

And people excusing it on a forum predominantly frequented by mothers is just so depressing and saddening.

@Lonelycrab

"Well the people of Gaza are actually being exterminated right now as I type this, so I’m more focused on that myself, rather than self indulgent analysis"

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But can't you see that this cycle of violence and death needs to be ended. Sure there could be a ceasefire but it won't change the animosity and refusal to accept each side's right to exist and the violence will simply flare up again but only worse.

Did you really think that after a Hamas terrorist attack that killed 1200 people that the Israelis would simply do nothing? No Government in the world would do that?

And people excusing it on a forum predominantly frequented by mothers is just so depressing and saddening

@Toothyfruity yes, exactly.

People get offended or tell you not to post it- war should not be sanitised. What’s happening in Gaza should absolutely not be sanitised. We all have a responsibility to stand up- I am going to write to my MP in the morning.

Do you accept that these people are living under apartheid though? If you don't then you're not an honest broker here.

Not because she disagrees but because she’s playing games with genuine posters. It looks to me as if she’s getting a kick out of it. If she (or he) is, then yes, they are vile.

The people of Gaza have been abandoned by our leaders.
Desperate negotiations for the release of hostages but
….no push for a ceasefire aswell in order to save all lives

is this a genocide?……of course it is. Aided by the US and UK. Shameful.