To think it’s turning into genocide in real time

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73]

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide.

What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this is also beyond appalling too. Its trying to wipe Gaza off the map. Over 500 kids have already died. Human rights watch have verified that Israel uses white phosphorus against Gaza, which is a war crime.

And everyone is just watching it happen.

“The Israeli army has just ordered the entire civilian population of Gaza to evacuate south within 24 hours. The UN says that amounts to 1.1 million people& applies to 100s of 1000s sheltered in UN buildings & their staff. This is impossible without “devastating human consequences”
Leaving aside the international law implications, I cannot emphasise enough how impossible this kind of movement of people would be. I have spent a lot of time in Gaza it is one of the most densely populated places on earth, there are pretty much only 2 roads south - along the coast and down the centre - they aren’t wide or well paved. I spoke to the gaza health ministry yesterday who said every hospital was overflowing. How would the wounded and elderly be transported? There is a massive fuel shortage how would vehicles drive? There would be no where for 1.1 million to go even if they got there. Rafah crossing to Egypt is not operational because of Israeli airstrikes.”

This is how Genocide is classified;
U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

• Killing members of the group;

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

The actions of both Israel & Hamas fit this description too. It’s just fucking beyond terrible. And it feels like some world leaders are just cheering from the sidelines 😪

Retaliation upon civilians by a government for an attack by terrorists in this way is very very wrong.

Governments should not be sinking to using terrorist tactics.

What is particularly offensive is all the Western politicians jumping on the bandwagon to side with 'the right guys' (Israelis). What Hamas did was appalling. What Isreali is doing / about to do is appalling. It's a war that's been going on for 75 years now. Its going to take the entire world, headed by the UN etc to sit down together to have any chance of a negotiated lasting peace a la N Ireland / Sth Africa. Yet they jump on bandwagon & Sunak uses it as a photo op to serve dinner to the Navy.

So when you're talking about what Palestine did, it's "Hamas" who did it. But when you talk about retaliation, it's "Israel" - basically all of us (the Jews)?

So you agree with there being a ground invasion which will inevitably kill thousands of innocent people?

Whereas the Israel state is literally bombing and destroying Gaza. But because they've not literally said they intend to destroy Palestinians - just Hamas - that's not potential genocide?

Nearly half of the population in Gaza is under 15 😢
Both sides clearly want to eradicate the other but Israel has the support of the US (hence other countries like the UK and France) and isn't filming evidence of their crimes so it looks clear cut to the sort of people who get their news from
social media.

I won't pretend to be informed on the matter at all, but this is what I keep coming back to.

@PurpleChrayne no, I’m not.

‘Israeli government’ is a better term and I will use that from now on because that is definitely what I mean.

But separating Hamas from the people of Gaza is also extremely important as 1.1 million people are told to move and are being collectively punished for the actions of a terrorist group.

Killing Hamas would not be a Genocide. Hamas are a terrorist group, not an entire race of people.

I cannot see how this ends unless governments and that is probably going to have to be America start pushing for deescalation. The slogan of 'Israel has the right to defend itself' is going to look pretty fucking ridiculous when thousands of Palestinians are dead and the remainder of the 2m population displaced refugees.

@BMW6 yea but collective punishment is being used in this case.

They aren't going to just kill Hamas though and they know that very well.

Israel is telling civilians to move to the south. Hamas is telling them not to leave so it can use them as human shields.

And collective punishment is a war crime - cutting power, water, food aid etc. Exactly what has happened here.

It cannot end while one side wants an entire country to disappear and the entire race of that country die.

Telling people to move on a scale and at a speed that just isn't possible (and when "move" means "leave your home and become a refugee") isn't an act of benevolence though, it's a threat.

@Queucumber yea but how can 1.1 million people move in 24 hours - as per my original post- it’s bullshit and it’s just pretending that they are doing the right thing when none of this is right.

But to be fair although the Israeli government are saying 'wipe out Hamas' they are wiping out all human life in Gaza. That to me is genocide.

I think it's hard for the governments of European countries and the USA to condemn Israel for several reasons.

1. This latest flare-up was "started" by Hamas attacking Israel. Regardless of the long-term attacks in the other direction, few would deny that Hamas didn't kick this round off. Therefore Israel is the "victim" and is retaliating hard.
2. Geographically Israel is surrounded by countries which don't believe Israel should exist. Without Western support Israel probably wouldn't exist for very long. It's difficult for the West to turn their back on Israel now.
3. Any criticism of Israel tends to be met with cries of antisemitism, not always unjustified cries. Western leaders are fearful of being seen as antisemites because of the consequences they perceive. Even discussing these perceived consequences is off the table because just discussing them will be met with cries of antisemitism. Again, not always unjustified cries.
4. Condemning Israel would be seen by many as condemning Jews and supporting Hamas, Palestine and Islamic countries in general. This is difficult because the threat of terrorism to the West is significantly greater from Islamic extremists than Jews.

More than any of the above the biggest reason is that whenever Western countries get involved in overseas conflicts that don't immediately concern them it is met with protests over illegal invasions and demands that they mind their own business because they don't have any right to interfere with other countries' activities. That the West shouldn't be some kind of worldwide police force.

But they are not just killing Hamas are they? Do you think the over 500 children Israel have murdered so far in the last few days are Hamas!?

@DottieMoon well yes, that is literally what I just said. Unless you intended to respond to someone else's post.

In the aftermath of the terrorist attack I can understand that a country in shock and living in fear of further attacks desires vengeance. I can understand that when the Israeli intelligence agencies and military were unable to protect its citizens the leader of that country may talk tough to reassure people and inspire confidence that the government will deal with the terrorists in a decisive way.

What I cannot understand is the response from global leaders. Where is the attempt to de-escalate? Why are they turning a blind eye to the humanitarian crisis and disregard for human rights in Gaza?

Because most governments believe in the right to retaliate in similar circumstances. I was hoping there could be some negotiations re hostages for a ceasefire but doesn’t seem to be happening.

There’s also the Iran issue

I read somewhere that this is the equivalent of the UK Gov bombing Northern Ireland out of existence in retaliation for the Manchester bomb. It is wrong. Hamas knew it would happen of course, but that doesn't mean what Israel is doing is right.

Biden is warmongering for votes and our own Govt, well to be fair, this is what leaving Europe and becoming a small post-colonial power looks like - we don't have any influence here. That's not to say we shouldn't be speaking up louder and more clearly, but our opinion isn't being sought.

To be clear, I blame Hamas for initiating these events and holding onto their own people in an attempt to unite the Arab world and do the same thing to Israel. But that doesn't mean the Israeli government's hands are clean either. This is a war crime in real time.

No , it isn't.

Hiroshima wasn't Genocide, nor was Nagazaki.

Coventry. The Blitz, etc weren't Genocide, nor was Hamburg or Dresden.

Bombing Gaza isn't Genocide either.

No. It's war-mongers on both sides (both Govts & paramilitary groups). It's never ordinary citizens who start wars. They are just the ones who pay & pay. Hamas is not the average Palestinian citizen. So I can criticise Hamas (& I do) without being anti-Palestinian. The current Israeli Govt doesn't necessarily represent the views of all Israelis (yet alone all those who identify as Jewish worldwide). So, I can criticise the Israeli evacuation order without being anti semitic. All involved are just People.