to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

Right, how far do we take 'identifying' with something? Can I decide overnight that I'm identifying with being white and expect to be referred to as white, even though I'm black (excluding the racism issue, can I just say 'I'm white' because I 'feel' white?)?

Can I identify as a cat and say I need to be allowed to sleep on my desk half of the day?

Minutiae it takes surprisingly little fuck all dedication to transitioning, to be accepted as the sex you wish to be treated as.

If you live in Cardiff, and require Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, which could be for harassment, rape, abuse, any number of things, and request a female counsellor, this may be who you get when you walk into the room.
Alex Drummond, Cardiff CBT therapist and resident man in a dress

that scares be because I have always requested a female doctor - I just feel more comfortable with a woman.

I've had these discussions with trans activists and it literally goes no where as they just say over and over 'transwomen are women'. I find it shocking that I get this on so called feminist groups, sites too.

If anyone's interested I've really enjoyed the videos of Magdalen Berns
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ
She really articulates well on these various issues and looks into the trans activist rhetoric. Her FB page is great too.

The thing is, that if these transwomen really felt like women, they would also have the understanding and empathy of why women are concerned about the loss of safe spaces. Ironically, they are completely determined to stomp all over the rights of the very group that they claim they are so desperate to be a part of.

minatiae re "good idea. if enough people write to MPs that has to count for something." Definitely good to write to your MP.

Don't know if this is out of date yet or not, but it is quite helpful... I think...

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-government-report-on-transgender-equality/

Re "fwiw I have no problem with post op trans women in women's bathrooms, nobody would know they were trans."

I think it is unlikely that nobody knows they are trans in all situations. As was mentioned before about the trans woman who was fighting a rape crisis centre to be allowed to volunteer there.... that person had undergone surgery, yet their behaviour was very typically male!

I think that surgery to remove the penis and testicles does make a difference and this should relate to a difference in how they should be treated legally but it doesn't make the person female.

NN can I ask how old your daughter is, roughly?

The only way people can truely accept that trans women are women is, I think, because they've redefined what it means to be a woman. But they don't seem willing to admit that.

I think that surgery to remove the penis and testicles does make a difference and this should relate to a difference in how they should be treated legally but it doesn't make the person female.

No, it doesn't.

No matter what anyone says, blogs, or writes in law, you cannot escape basic biology.

I can't help thinking that the innate natural protectiveness a woman feels for her personal space, needs to be respected.

Not all men are a threat, of course they aren't. And the same for Transwomen (still biologically men), they aren't all a threat either.
But if something or someone feels wrong to you by being there in your space, shouldn't be.

We've had thousands of years of 'trusting our gut' in our surroundings, and only a few years of being told what we have be comfortable with by law. I'll trust my gut.

VioletVaccine totally agree. Have you heard about the signs in toilets at Bristol university?

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/student-life/11238813/University-trans-awareness-poster-prompts-huge-response.html

I had not realised it had been around since 2014.

Sadly, I am now quite uncomfortable around any males dressed in traditional women's clothing.

I did not used to feel like this!

Sadly reading about cases where males have put their rights to re-define 'us' ahead of our safety and privacy has made me pretty suspicious and I know this will not really be the case for the majority of trans women but unfortunately it's made me much more suspicious.

One of my main concerns at the moment is young females who are so uncomfortable being women they are identifying as men.

But how can anyone say they "feel like a woman" instead of a man? Have we suddenly defined what it means to be "woman"? I wear mens jeans because they are more comfortable. Does that make me trans? Or non-binary? Or whatever label they put on it? Or does it just mean that I'm a biological female who likes wear mens jeans?

Is "woman" wearing a dress, high heels and makeup? If so, does that mean that everyone who doesn't wear those items is not a woman?

How can anyone say they "feel like a woman" when no one can define precisely what that means anyway? Most transwomen seem to like the dressing up part, but doesn't that just make them a man in a dress?

And the toilets example is a good one to remember lack of safe toilets is a massively dangerous issue for women around the world, although of course as this article explains they may still be victims elsewhere.

It also explains more about the M and M example I think someone on here gave. Very good.

[[https://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/not-all-mms-are-poisoned/]

MidniteScribbler I think a lot of women are waking up to how crazy this is.

Sorry, previous link fail....

edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/not-all-mms-are-poisoned/

I could be totally wrong about this but...
Before I joined MN I thought a trans woman had had surgery
So I wonder how many of the sympathisers we hear from indirectly have realised that it doesn't mean that

The thing is, i am very much of the 'do whatever the fuck you like, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else' school of thought.

So:

Wanting to shag another consenting adult of the same sex = fine
Wanting to shag a child = not fine (I must stress here that I am only making this comparison as some people seem to think that they are on some sort of par as years ago homosexuality was 'wrong' as well).

Believing every word in the Bible = fine
Using that belief to hurt others = not fine

Being a man who dresses up in what are traditionally women's clothes, has breast surgery and changes their name to a more traditionaloy female one = fine
Initisting that the definition of 'woman' is changed and that women have to redefine themselves to accommodate you, insisting that you are allowed into female only places, insisting that you compete against women in sporting events and showing absolutely no regard for the fact that if a woman has said she doesn't wax male genitals, then she may decline to wax yours when you present them to her = not fine.

As for Alex Drummond, the thing I don't get about the beard thing is that of you have such terrible gender dysphoria that you are convinced that you are a woman in a man's body, to the extent that you want women to redefine themselves to accommodate this feeling, then why the fuck would you keep the characteristic that most obviously defines you as a bloke? I mean, i get that getting your penis removed is enormous surgery and usually results in a botched set of female genetalia, so can sort of see why you might not bother, but a beard can be just shaved/waxed off?

Italian I hadn't seen that bathroom sign, no. How dreadfully condescending and dismissive, someone may have deep worries and mistrust of sharing their bathroom space with someone of the opposite sex, and that's what they are met with?
Nice pandering to a minority while putting the denying the rights of an entire group to give it to them.

Brandonstark absolutely.

When the rights of one group to be accepted encroach on the rights of another group's right to feel safe and respected, something is wrong with what they are asking for.

See, I wouldn't even like to share a changing room with a post-op TW. To me their mind and eyes are no different than if they are pre-op on a Tuesday and then post-op on a Wednesday. I just wouldn't like it.

However...I would put up with it as I understand that we have to draw the line somewhere re trans people in women's safe spaces - as someone once eloquently put in another thread - "no penis, no problem". To me, that is the line, and that would be my preferred compromise.

I didn't want to start a TAAT so I'll also say here how disappointed I was the Jack Monroe thread was zapped. I'd got to about page 4, and it was all good by then, will MNHQ please see this is an interesting discussion that needs to constantly be had on here to capture people like me, who, until 6 months ago, wasn't aware of the fundamentals of the gender critical debate and how it harms women. MN - and I particular, Hermione, educated me massively for the better. Can they really just not zap the PA posts like they do for every other thread?!

Pinky it is really, really important that these issues are discussed, debated openly and as often as possible I think.
Massive changes are being exacted right under our feet, and we need to be armed with all the information we can get our hands on, considering the policies which are now being installed directly affect us.

I'm not some precious snowflake demanding Safe Space from anyone who doesn't fit the mould perfectly of woman, it's the way that the words 'female' and 'woman' are being redefined to include people who have no business or right to use the term, that is frightening.

The word 'woman' is description enough. If you aren't committed to matching the description, it isn't for you.
Society is broadening the definition of a word, to include people that it doesn't apply to, and that really worries me to be honest.

If they broaden the description of a Kangaroo, to include a pouch left on your stomach after childbirth, can I use be one?

Speaking personally as someone who was assaulted in a nightclub bathroom as a teenager, by a man who followed me in there, I'll fight in any way I can to prevent a woman being forced to share the bathroom with someone of the opposite sex. Ie, if they still have a penis.
If you want to keep your penis, you still want to be a man- and nobody will convince me otherwise.

I was really lucky. It was seen on that a man had followed me, a security guard was informed and he came in around 30seconds after the man did. But that half minute was enough for me to be assaulted, and I still remember clouding over thinking, "this is happening" and I didn't even fight because I was frozen stiff.
20 years later, in the same situation, maybe someone would see the back of a long haired man in a dress following a woman, and not have looked twice. Or worse, see it, but not dare report it in case they appear prejudiced.

There's a reason for separate facilities, and God help women if the redefining of what constitutes a female, means we're forced to share our bathrooms with biological men so nobody gets sidelined or offended. Except us, of course. But who cares about that, eh?

*So:

Wanting to shag another consenting adult of the same sex = fine
Wanting to shag a child = not fine (I must stress here that I am only making this comparison as some people seem to think that they are on some sort of par as years ago homosexuality was 'wrong' as well).

Believing every word in the Bible = fine
Using that belief to hurt others = not fine

Being a man who dresses up in what are traditionally women's clothes, has breast surgery and changes their name to a more traditionaloy female one = fine
Initisting that the definition of 'woman' is changed and that women have to redefine themselves to accommodate you, insisting that you are allowed into female only places, insisting that you compete against women in sporting events and showing absolutely no regard for the fact that if a woman has said she doesn't wax male genitals, then she may decline to wax yours when you present them to her = not fine.
*

this

^I could be totally wrong about this but...
Before I joined MN I thought a trans woman had had surgery
So I wonder how many of the sympathisers we hear from indirectly have realised that it doesn't mean ^

Lorelei76 I think that's true, or at least they are seen as 'pre op' or 'post op' you know, waiting to have it done. That you don't even need dysphoria and Danielle Muscato is a woman is probably a big surprise to them. Unfortunately these people are changing the rules.

VioletVaccine on "Stephonknee", the 57-year-old asshole who identifies as a six year old girl - had you seen that he has an absolutely vile Pinterest board which is a mix of pictures of fetish porn mixed up with photos of real little girls in party dresses? I won't go looking for it again, so I don't know if he's taken it down since, but it's seriously disturbing. He has also blogged about the sex he has with his "adopted daddy", whilst in the persona of a six year old girl. Which somehow doesn't count as promoting child abuse, IDK why. And this vicious clown has been cited in the Canadian parliament as someone who has contributed to trans-positive legislation. And I have seen people I thought were otherwise rational fawning all over him as a terribly brave, tragic, oppressed person and if you aren't terribly concerned about his welfare you are a TERF. Ugh.