to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

Thanks Hermione. I wasnt too sure.

Yes thats Dani Mathers.

Sorry for al, the questions, I just don't know anyone who has this views in RL to ask about them!

It's fine - I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it as it clarifies my own thinking and counteracts her condemnation of me!

Does she accept with the feelz argument that it opens women (and genuine TW) up to risk if any man can say "I identify as a woman" and get access?

Yes, she does - but she disagrees that all men (and transwomen) should be penalised due to the possible actions of a minority.

Does she accept that women are at risk of violence from men and the majority of violent crime is committed by men? Have you discussed with her that even fully transitioned TW retain a male pattern of criminality including violent crime? If so, does she see any problem with that?

Again, yes, she accepts it - but doesn't believe that risk management should include the exclusion of innocent individuals. Men who commit crime are punished, and that is how it should be. Not protecting women from the potential risk of hypothetical offenders.

Does she recognise any differences between TW and women?

Sort of, but believes that TW have a right to be referred to as Women if they wish to be, and that the term "cis" is an acceptable prefix to distinguish between women and transwomen if necessary.

NN why does your daughter feel it's acceptable to expose biological women to any increased risk to appease the feelings of a few?

I bloody well hope the idea doesnt filter through to school changing rooms for all the reasons you stated.

It already is - self identifying trans-girls are being permitted access to female changing and dormitory facilities. Shared dorms and changing facilities are being considered in some schools.

And many schools already have unisex toilet facilities. Culture does seem to have changed since I was at school - for instance, the teens I know are open about their periods, no hiding their tampons up their sleeves and no boys sniggering about their female classmates being "on" - there is a lot more acceptance and openness amongst the DCs I spend time with, at least.

NN why does your daughter feel it's acceptable to expose biological women to any increased risk to appease the feelings of a few?

Because she believes that the rights of those few outweigh the potential (unmeasurable) reduction in risk to the majority by excluding them.

NN in that case, why would we segregate at all? Why punish some men for the actions of a few?

And in that case, and we can just punish people when crimes are committed, surely that goes for TW using male facilities too? If they get harassed or assaulted, just punish the perpetrator

And in that case, and we can just punish people when crimes are committed, surely that goes for TW using male facilities too? If they get harassed or assaulted, just punish the perpetrator

Ah, no, because transwomen don't want access to female only spaces in order to protect them from violent men, they want access to female only spaces in order to validate their feelings as a female. They don't want to be treated differently from other women.

Unisex facilities would resolve the issue, and I understand in mainland Europe, that is more commonplace, but they have attendants, which may mitigate against the increased risk, but will not address the uncomfortable feelings or religious issues of shared spaces.

Hang on a minute NN, you're dd said it was their right to enter female only spaces and not about feelings.

Why are trans women's feelings more important than those of women (biological women) who feel threatened or uncomfortable with the presence of a penis in a female only space.

Also, I thought one of the main arguments for trans women entering female changing rooms and toilets was because they are at risk of attack in the male facilities? As someone else pointed out (not on this thread) the fear of attack is a problem with men's attitudes so why should women give up their safe spaces to resolve that?

Why are trans women's feelings more important than those of women (biological women) who feel threatened or uncomfortable with the presence of a penis in a female only space.

Because, if we accept (as my DD does) that transwomen are women, then the majority of woman's feelings outrank those of a few cis-women, who are a subset of "all women". Sadly, it appears that "we", who wish to maintain segregated spaces, are increasingly in the minority. Fortunately, despite that, government recently rejected the recommendations made by the Equalties and Women's Committee which would have permitted self identifying women access to women's spaces.

I thought one of the main arguments for trans women entering female changing rooms and toilets was because they are at risk of attack in the male facilities?

It is for some, not for all, and this is what makes the issue so complex. Not all women believe that segregated spaces are provided for their safety (as evidenced on this thread). Similarly, not all women (trans or otherwise) believe that they would be at risk in a space set aside for men.

The possession, or otherwise, of a penis is no longer considered a sex or gender identifying appendage by most of my DDs friends and her wider generation if what I've seen online is representative. Once I got my head around that, I understood their arguments and POV. I don't agree with them, but I can see where they are coming from.

Even if your dd believes that trans women are women and cis women are a subset, there are more cis women in the world. Surely by her logic, our feelings outweigh theirs?

Another point is that both men and women in the majority want sex segregated changing rooms, loos, prisons etc.
Only white people wanted segregation from black people not vice Versa. (Black separatism/black panther etc was a reaction towards racism so very different)

Personally I would rather see a situation where more facilities were outright unisex rather than the situation where you have spaces which are designed for segregation being used by individuals of both sexes based on their stated gender identity. Around me, most of the gyms have very few cubicles (1 or 2) and just open benches for changing in the ladies/gents. Similarly there are some swimming pools where there are 'cubicles' but the walls are about 4ft high and they don't have doors because when they were being design there was no concept that individuals of the opposite sex would be entering them.

If we had a situation where, say, it was decided that all new changing rooms and toilets needed to be unisex then the design of them would almost certainly be different to what we have now - toilets which were used by all would not have urinals just out in the open, swimming pool changing facilities would be made up entirely of individual/family cubicles, and so on.

I'm not saying I'd like that - but I would prefer that someone said OK, facilities built after 2020 need to be unisex than that we continue with this current situation of people where women are in a space which they expect to be female only and is designed to be female only and find themselves sharing with a biological male.

Sorry nn, I don't want it to seem like I'm having a go at your daughter. She sounds like an intelligent and open minded young women, which is wonderful.

I am just interested in hearing how she feels about trans women in female only spaces. Not just toilets and changing rooms but domestic violence refuges and rape crisis centres. Also, how does she feel about trans women, who have gone through male puberty competing against women? Isn't she frightened that women will start to disappear from public life? The majority of women will not be able to beat someone who has been through male puberty. Males are generally stronger and taller than females. What about deeply religious women who will withdraw from sports facilities? Rape and domestic abuse survivors who will stop accessing facilities because of the presence of people who have penises, beards and wear male clothing? Not all those who identify as trans women present as women. When I go into a changing room and see a man with a penis and a beard, how do I know whether that person is a genuine trans woman or just a pervert? (There are various examples of sex offenders gaining access to changing rooms, toilets etc to spy on women). Anyone would be able to claim they "felt like a woman". Why should I and other women have to make that judgement or run that risk.

Do your daughter and her friends not believe in basic biology?

Another point is that both men and women in the majority want sex segregated changing rooms, loos, prisons etc.
Only white people wanted segregation from black people not vice Versa. (Black separatism/black panther etc was a reaction towards racism so very different)

And that point should be emphasised. The "danger" reason can be brushed aside with the explanation that it's only a few rare cases and there are already laws in place.

The privacy and dignity argument can't and it applies equally to men.

Herminoe "ve you discussed with her that even fully transitioned TW retain a male pattern of criminality including violent crime? If so, does she see any problem"

Glad you said this because I nearly started another thread. I have a contact who is probably transitioning from female to male (originally she said she was going non binary). This issue came up in conversation with a close friend of of mine who is close with the transitioning contact.

My friend gently told me she thought those concerns made me anti trans. I said I can see you'd argue I was being anti men but I don't think it makes me anti trans.

I am childfree. This whole thing makes as much sense to me as someone saying "I have children but I identify as childfree". Er, you might want to, but you aren't!

No surgery and no hormonal treatment to me equals no change. The "brain" thing worries me, as for make up and dresses, I don't do either so I guess some would say I have a male brain. Da fuck?

i don't mind if people with penises can't access women only spaces but as long as that's considered okay, I guess I'm a TERF.

I really, really don't want unisex everything to become the norm. I want female only spaces. If unisex became the norm, I would never feel comfortable going in a changing room or public toilet again. Everything unisex is not the answer.

I'm not saying it's the answer - but for me it is preferable to biologically male individuals gaining entry to spaces designed only for women. I'm not convinced that the battle to keep sex segregated spaces exclusively for those with the appropriate biology is one which is going to be won.

-minatiae you need to write to your MP before the law gets any crazier. At the moment, sex segregated spaces are allowed, if the law changes then it's open season.

Thank fuck for my dd. She's 14 and we've had some long chats about the whole trans thing at the moment. She thinks pretty much as we do on here. She believes women's rights to privacy and safety are more important than a few men who want to take our rights away.

Not all teens are buying into the Bruce Jenner School of Female.

good idea. if enough people write to MPs that has to count for something.

fwiw I have no problem with post op trans women in women's bathrooms, nobody would know they were trans. I'm not anti trans that I would argue against someone who's had the surgery in there since it would be as bad for them to be in a mans area as for a women in one. But I do think there needs to be a distinguished difference in the law between people saying they feel female entering those places and people who have had operations to appear female in them. One is potentially threatening, the other isn't. It should be based on how a person physically appears not how they 'identify' for it to be reasonable for everyone involved.

I am no expert n this debate and am finding it fascinating.

A lot of damage can be done using a penis - there is a reason literature often refers to it as a rod, a sword, or a weapon. Without sounding too carry on.....

A man (or a trans woman, presumably, pre-op ) is physically stronger, has a penis / weapon and, surely, has all the higher propensity for violence that men have (not sure about stats but prisons are full of men).

Women are physically smaller, weaker and can be harmed by the strength and the weapon. Now, no one (least of all me) is suggesting that all men / pre-op trans women are potential rapists. But, they can be concerning. Women often escape to the toilets, the women only spaces, as far back as primary school, this is where we hid from aggressive boys.

Surely, we have the right to the protection (,actual physical protection) affirmed by these spaces. And, surely our right to be physically safe trumps someone's right to be there to avoid having their feelings hurt?

Certainly requiring genital surgery before a GRC (gender recognition certificate) is issued would cut down the numbers considerably as 70-80% of MTT keep their penises. Personally, I still want some spaces to be for women only.

For example there was a TW who sued a rape crisi centre for 12 YEARS because they wouldn't let her volunteer there. Even the judge said her main motivation was to validate her "womanhood" - it certainly wasn't concern for the raped women who didn't want someone born a man "helping" them.

Just to throw this in here, on how far we have to take people's 'self identification' to be enough to qualify as the opposite sex, and considering that just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean it is.

'Stefonknee Wolscht' is a middle aged father of 7, who 'identifes as female'.
Not only female, but he identifes as a six year old girl.

Should we accommodate his feelings and let him put on his dress and go and play in Year 1 primary classes, because that's where he feels he belongs?

I'm actually finding myself less tolerant of TW and their issues as the debates rage on. The way to getting acceptance is not to force themselves on women - telling women they are discriminating against them if they don't want to sleep with them, exposing themselves to a beauty therapist demanding treatment they can't physically have, expecting to be allowed in to women's only refuges. These acts are disgusting, and go no way towards building the acceptance that they are trying to demand everyone have for them.

Quite frankly, I can't bring myself to believe that most TW are really "women". They may like to wear women's clothing, do their makeup and wear high heels, but surely that just makes them a cross dresser. If they really want to be classified as a woman, they should at least be beginning to formally transition and be preparing for full gender reassignment surgery. Otherwise, they're just a man in a dress.

Right, how far do we take 'identifying' with something? Can I decide overnight that I'm identifying with being white and expect to be referred to as white, even though I'm black (excluding the racism issue, can I just say 'I'm white' because I 'feel' white?)?

Can I identify as a cat and say I need to be allowed to sleep on my desk half of the day?