to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

We segregate men from women for safety, privacy and dignity

Nobody suggested that women were at risk from men in mixed sex hospital wards, but they made everyone feel uncomfortable.

The fact is that women feel uncomfortable sharing intimate space with men for a variety of reasons, and that should be respected.

The fact that not all men are a threat is irrelevant

We segregate men from women for safety, privacy and dignity

I would put it as

"We provide , in certain circumstances, separate facilities for women and men for privacy and dignity"

I bet the vast majority of men have as little desire to be naked in front of strange women as vice versa.

lass I repeat again, these are not my opinions, these are the responses to the numerous debates I have had with my DD, who considers me to be a TERF due to my sharing your opinions on this issue!

The problem is that all the arguments as to why men should be segregated from women in specific situations have been, in the past, used to justify segregating blacks from whites. Safety, personal comfort, respect for feelings. To reiterate again, I do not agree but, I am floundering when it comes to responding because short of saying "well, that's different" I have no response. I was hoping that MN could provide me with some!

Both penises and skin colour are genetically coded. If skin colour is no longer considered an acceptable differential in society, why are penises?

It's different because

• there isn't a long history of black people oppressing white people
• there's no evidence that black people are dangerous to white people
• black people aren't bigger and stronger than white people

It's comparing apples and albatrosses

Sex and race are not the same thing

Hermione , that misses the point most men would be equally as uncomfortable sharing with women.

I'm not particularly keen on promoting the danger aspect as a justification. That is not why hospital wards are single sex.

Fine, social norms too - that's why you can't compare sex and race

I disagree it's not a safety thing. Of course it is. Women are unsafe from male aggression in any environment in which they are semi-clothed or vulnerable. Even in a hospital situation with staff there around the clock (hopefully), this doesn't stop an aggressive man from acting in an aggressive way in terms of how he looks at women, how he interacts with them, how he uses his physical presence. And it doesn't take long to harm someone. If a man decided he did want to hurt a woman or make her feel very very afraid he could probably do so before anyone managed to get there as it only takes a few seconds.

The difference with the black/white thing is that there is no millennia long history of violence, oppression and aggression from black women against white women - (to be fair if black women wanted safe segregated space from white women I'd say they had a valid argument). There is also no history of black women as a group shaming white women for what they look like etc. Whereas if you made teenage school children change in unisex changing rooms I would think it pretty likely that males shaming females about their naked/semi-clothed bodies would be far more significant than females shaming males (although I don't doubt that would happen too - kids can be pretty vile). I was bullied at school for being an overeweight spotty, awkward teenager, always by boys who told me how disgusting I was on a daily basis. Had they been allowed into the girls changing rooms I can only imagine how much more awful the abuse would have been. My class was all white people though. I don't anticipate that had it for some reason become more ethnically diverse, girls with different skin colours would have been more likely to body shame than the other white girls.

Many / most places have never segregated black and white people. It's completely irrelevant that some particularly racist societies did this. It's like saying that because gay sex is now legal, we should also legalise paedophilia, incest and sheep shagging.

(to be fair if black women wanted safe segregated space from white women I'd say they had a valid argument)

I disagree.

I'm not saying I agree with it, just that you could make an argument for it, given that racism is still a thing. I would tend to disagree with the argument though.

TimeforaNNChangeHow does your daughter define a woman? What does she call an adult person with the bits for bearing offspring?

If you are arguing for single sex on safety grounds I don't see how you can argue there needs to be single sex facilities because women are safer round other women and even safer if white women are excluded too.

You might as well take it to the conclusion that black women can share with black men who can protect them and then where do you end up?

Many / most places have never segregated black and white people. It's completely irrelevant that some particularly racist societies did this. It's like saying that because gay sex is now legal, we should also legalise paedophilia, incest and sheep shagging

Thanks Flora That succinctly puts what I was struggling with.

need does your daughter think all segregation is wrong ie all facilities should be unisex? I'm not really clear? Or does she believe trans women are women?

cloak. I don't think she fully understands herself - she does think I am wrong not to accept that trans-women are women just like me, and she doesn't agree with my suggested compromise that there are trans-women facilities, separate from men and women's - she believes that trans-women should have the right to use women's facilities - including women's shelters etc.

Where she gets defensive and flounders in her argument is in relation to situations such as the OP - where a trans-woman has insisted on a procedure that she is not biologically capable of receiving. She says that is a misguided individual who needs support, but the overall principle that transwomen should be treated like women stands, in her mind.

What does she call an adult person with the bits for bearing offspring?

She's comfortable with the term "cis" to describe men and women who align with the sex/gender they were assigned at birth.

Most men might be equally uncomfortable sharing with women but that's not the point that's being made here I don't think.

Men oppress women, they have certain privilege above women just for being male, whether that is universal or not, women have throughout history been oppressed by men. A man who has decided she feels like a woman has more rights and more protection and more privilege than a woman if we get to a point where we're not allowed to not allow penises in woman-only places based on what the person the penis is attached to feels like. The reason we hear about people objecting to penises in women areas and not vaginas in man areas is that the men already have a privilege over women, are not threatened by women, have not been oppressed by women. They may feel uncomfortable but not in the same way as a penis in a women's changing room makes women uncomfortable. Allowing it is like saying that men are still above women even when that man has decided to become a woman. Their rights to be where they feel they belong are above the rights of the women who share that space with them. That's not right.

It would be nice if we could just have male, female, and unisex facilities available everywhere so those who don't want to be in a place where they feel their gender doesn't fit don't have to be in a male or female only space, protecting people who want a male or female only space while giving people who don't want that somewhere else to go where nobody in there will mind what genitals they have as it's clear the space is unisex.

NN does your daughter think a TW needs any modification, or is a beardy guy saying "I'm a woman" enough to make him a woman and entitled to use female only facilities?

What if having male,people there stops groups of women from using those facilities - Muslim women for example or rape survivors unwilling to use a group that has TW in?

NN does your daughter think a TW needs any modification, or is a beardy guy saying "I'm a woman" enough to make him a woman and entitled to use female only facilities?

What if having male,people there stops groups of women from using those facilities - Muslim women for example or rape survivors unwilling to use a group that has TW in?

The former - she believes in the feelz

And she believes that transwomen have the same rights as women saying that victims of female-on-female violence have to overcome their unwillingness to use facilities where other women are.

mina the problem with that is that many trans-activists and supporters are not satisfied with being provided with "trans" spaces and will exert their right to be in a female-only space, irrespective of the impact that has on others.

Hence, Karen from the OP, asserting her perceived "right" to expose her male gentialia to a female beautician who does not carry out procedures on the male anatomy.

Hermione after what Dani Mathers has done i would be just as worried about some women tbh.

Can someone please tell me what the letters in TERF stand for because im still not sure.

NN I'm just boggling. Sorry for al, the questions, I just don't know anyone who has this views in RL to ask about them!

Does she accept with the feelz argument that it opens women (and genuine TW) up to risk if any man can say "I identify as a woman" and get access? Does she accept that women are at risk of violence from men and the majority of violent crime is committed by men? Have you discussed with her that even fully transitioned TW retain a male pattern of criminality including violent crime? If so, does she see any problem with that?

Does she recognise any differences between TW and women?

helena is Dani Mathers that dreadful woman who shared a photo she took in secret of a woman at her gym? What she did was appalling, but it is incredibly rare that women secretly film other women. Women sometimes sexually assault other women, but it is very very rare. Rare enough for most of us to feel comfortable sharing intimate space with other women, even if they are strangers.

TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Check out the website "terfisaslur.com" if you want to see how it's used by certain trans people. It is often accompanied by DIAF or die in a fire. Nice.

wantingresults i bloody well hope the idea doesnt filter through to school changing rooms for all the reasons you stated.

I had the biggest boobs in my year. It would have been hell.