to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

That highlights the point, doesn't it violet?

People like Karen, seeing society accepting men giving birth, and women with penises, without challenge. Well, they may have uteruses even though they are men, but that's not really the important point here, what's important is that men can do things that they have previously been excluded from.

So she rocks up at a clinic asking for a procedure that is carried out on women, because after all, society accepts that women have penises now, so she is entitled to that treatment, isn't she?

I'm laughing at "likely"!

Yet again we see the logical outcome when we stop "men/male" and "woman/female" being biological terms and instead refer to vague feelings in someone's head.

Exactly.

And that is so, so wrong. I yearn to go back to a time when things were clearly defined.
Lines are now being blurred to the extent that M2F pre-op bloggers are talking about their "soft, feminine penis" and "my girly dick", are being praised for 'breaking down barriers' by doing so.

Is this a good direction to go? I don't think so, when the lines between the sexes are intertwined like this, you've effectively told someone that they can have the best of both sexes and both worlds, and if anyone doesn't agree with you, they are intolerant to your struggle.

Which leads to men in dresses attending beauty salons and asking for women only salons to wax their male genitalia, because it feels like a girls penis, it must be accepted as one.

when the lines between the sexes are intertwined like this, you've effectively told someone that they can have the best of both sexes and both worlds, and if anyone doesn't agree with you, they are intolerant to your struggle.

My DD, who considers me to be a TERF, argues that the same was said about blacks not that many decades ago.

when the lines between the races are intertwined like this, you've effectively told someone that they can have the best of both cultures and both worlds, and if anyone doesn't agree with you, they are intolerant to your struggle.

She has a point.

No, she doesn't.

Agree, your daughter is misguided I'm afraid.

We need language to describe women as we are still oppressed in our millions around the world due to our biology, not our ladyfeelz.

Women need sex segregated space, not space that anyone claiming ladyfeelz is entitled to come into.

Unfortunately in time she's likely to learn this.

Timeforannchange
I don't agree she has a point.
The problem is when people from a powerful group try to exploit those from a subjugated group.
This is why it's acceptable to have groups just for people of colour not ones just for white people.
Women are a subjugated group and should have the right not to be exploited by males who are in the powerful group.
Because people see how racism is a problem we fight those trying to take advantage eg Rachel dozeil. But as society cares less the subjugation of women we are meant to give up our freedoms for biologically male transwomen.

The whole transgender debate actually makes me think about the BIID debate. It is seemed to be acceptable to cut off a penis and make the remaining tissue in to the best possible replica of female organs and call yourself a woman. So it is ok to cut off your penis, but a person with BIID can't cut off a body part in order to make themselves feel that they match their own physical image of themselves. Where do we draw the line? You can cut off a penis, but not a leg?

I have to say I disagree too. Race segregation can't be compared to sex segregation really.

If a black woman walks into the changing room I am in, she has absolute equal right to get undressed next to me. She is a woman just like me.

If a black pre-op man in a dress wants to strip off in the same room as me, I will leave if he isn't made to, because he is a man.
I don't ever want to be naked, change my clothes and share the attached bathrooms where I pee and change tampons, with someone who has a penis.
Is that really too much to ask?

Race and racism is a completely different thing. With the exception of Rachel Dolezal, nobody is going around saying they want to be referred to as white when they're black or black when they're white. Nobody is trying to redefine what black or white is. Nobody is saying I should call myself a non-white black person like they're saying I should call myself a cis woman instead of just a woman. Totally different issue.

I don't ever want to be naked, change my clothes and share the attached bathrooms where I pee and change tampons, with someone who has a penis.

But exactly the same attitude used to exist about blacks by whites. They wouldn't even share a bus with black people - who were considered different due to their skin colour.

My DDs argument is that a penis/testicles/XY chromosomes are no different to skin colour (both are a function of genetics) and that in time, my prejudices will be eliminated from society as a whole.

She is right that I do view people with penises in the same way as whites used to view blacks. As different to me, and people from whom I believe I am entitled to segregation in certain circumstances.

But there is a countless wall of evidence that men are dangerous to women - from peeping, secretly filming through to assault, rape and murder, when men get access to women's spaces they hurt us. This is a fact, not a prejudice.

My DDs argument is that a penis/testicles/XY chromosomes are no different to skin colour (both are a function of genetics) and that in time, my prejudices will be eliminated from society as a whole.

A pre-op transgender person peeing in the cubicle next to you makes no difference to your life. A pre-op transgender person stripping off in a female change room and expecting other women to be accepting of seeing their penis is a totally different scenario.

The problem with that argument hermione is that it perpetuates the "lady-brain" theory.

If we seek to exclude all men because they are violent and predatory, then we are implying that men's brains are different to women's brains.

I do view people with penises in the same way as whites used to view blacks. As different to me, and people from whom I believe I am entitled to segregation in certain circumstances

That statement makes no sense.

White people (men and women) viewed black people (men and women) as being inferior to them.

Women only wanting to share a changing room where they will be naked with other women are not asking for that because they think men are inferior.

Indeed men only wanting to share a changing room where they will be naked with other men aren't asking for that because they think women are inferior.

Time re "Compare that to the media coverage of a self-identifying transwomen who had been found guilty of murder, in which the articles referred to her as a woman and avoided publishing her photograph in order to prevent her identity as a transwomen being exposed.
In those articles, the word woman meant something very different to the "traditional" definition."

I totally agree.

Re 'pregnant men' it is such a load of crap, even my dd has said it really happened, she is 11. It utterly pisses me off she has been misinformed, probably by school mates, that this is possible. YES, she knows the facts of life. Her friends talk about people being able to change sex, I explain, no they cannot!

Trevor's partner is a man. Trevor is a straight women who has had two babies and breastfed with a male partner! The only bit that is weird or noteworthy is Trevor thinks it is noteworthy! IMHO!

I am surprised having a child hasn't made Trevor aware of how mixed up all this is!)

Yes, the choice of language is all totally frustrating re segregation!

We do segregate people and things for a purpose. Race segregation is wrong we all know that but segregating for the protection and privacy for sex is what we do now. It's not always been done. The old way was not to segregate women in prisons etc, and imagine that horror. The old way was to segregate people on the basis of race. We know that is wrong. We have moved on.

Some people are trying to take us back to the old days of women, at their most vulnerable, thrown in among men, and using the language of racial segregation to defend their position. Very wrong.

Clearly, Rachel Dolezal is a very mixed up person and I feel sorry for her, and I also feel sorry for Trevor. But Trevor has the potential through 'his' confusion and, I feel, misogyny, to do a lot more harm to women than Rachel did to black people. Black people are actually quite divided on how they feel about Rachel, I think some sense, from what I have seen on line, that her intentions were good.

Trevor is out for 'himself' and his position and normalizing what he has experienced into the version of life that he sees it. That is OK, to me, BUT you cannot expect everyone else to go along with the delusion that you are a pregnant man. It's just not so and we won't be gaslighted into it!

A pre-op transgender person peeing in the cubicle next to you makes no difference to your life. A pre-op transgender person stripping off in a female change room and expecting other women to be accepting of seeing their penis is a totally different scenario

I agree.

Sorry ... and breastfed with a male partner! ... I mean breastfed the babies while the partner is male.

Time - I don't think it's got anything to do with lady brains, at least not in the sense that there are two types of brains different at birth. It's to do with different socialisation. Men are socialised to dominate and to feel entitled to behave in aggressive, sometimes violent ways which is the problem.

"If we seek to exclude all men because they are violent and predatory, then we are implying that men's brains are different to women's brains."
I'm not following your logic here. There is no implication that male aggression towards women is caused by 'the male brain being different to the female brain'. There's a world of social/historical reasons explaining the behaviour.

Nobody is asking for "Women only Safe Zones", just the right to not have men invading certain places because they feel like a woman, simply because they put a dress on that morning. Simply 'identifying as' something doesn't make it so, you should at least have the dedication to align your body to what you say your 'brain' feels.
That means no penises in a 'ladies only' salon.
Why is that too much to ask?

I can identify as an Albatross if I so choose. But until someone builds me a set of functioning wings, nobody will be convinced I'm really an Albatross until I fly.

So if male violence is not predetermined, then why exclude all men irrespective of their risk to women? Why are all men excluded from places to ensure women feel safe when there is no evidence that all men present an increased risk?

So if male violence is not predetermined, then why exclude all men irrespective of their risk to women? Why are all men excluded from places to ensure women feel safe when there is no evidence that all men present an increased risk?

The changing room, hospital ward scenario as far as I am concerned has nothing to do with excluding men due to risk prevention.

Women are excluded from the equivalent male only facilities.

The changing room, hospital ward scenario as far as I am concerned has nothing to do with excluding men due to risk prevention.

so why do we segregate? If it's to do with personal comfort, then isn't that just another word for prejudice?

The changing room, hospital ward scenario as far as I am concerned has nothing to do with excluding men due to risk prevention

so why do we segregate? If it's to do with personal comfort, then isn't that just another word for prejudice?

Are you really that naive?

OK I'm going to be a hypocrite ( in case any one is reading the sweary thread) but what the fuck is wrong with taking "personal comfort" in to account in a situation where you will be removing all your clothes in front of complete strangers?

It has nothing to do with prejudice.

I don't want to be naked in front of other women. OK fine, I'm an uptight British prude but if I had to I would be less uncomfortable if all the other bodies were female.