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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that if SATS judge teachers not students...........

51 replies

Bogeyface · 12/05/2013 23:18

.......then they shouldnt put such pressure on the kids if they are confident in their own ability to teach?

DD is in a right state about her Y6 SATS. She has had it right left and centre from her teachers (3 on a job share, dont get me started on that). I have read here and other places that the biggest issue with SATS is that the teacher gets appraised on the results.

So if they are good teachers and are confident in their teaching abilities then they shouldnt be making such a big deal out of it? DD is gifted (she has been assessed as such) and yet her nerves mean that she may well have terrible results. Surely the teachers dont want that?

AIBU to think that if you are a good teacher you dont need to pressure the children you are teaching to the point of abject fear?

PS. I have six kids, only one is gifted, before I get jumped on!

OP posts:
Schooldidi · 12/05/2013 23:25

I don't understand the pressure year 6 kids are put under either.
It is entirely down to pressure for results and showing that all pupils make the expected progress, and a lot of teachers seem to think that more pupils will respond to the pressure than will burn out from it.

Thankfully my own dd1 was rather oblivious to the pressure when she did them a couple of years ago, but her friend was so stressed that she vomited before each exam! That's really not good. I think the kids who take the pressure to heart are generally the ones who don't really need to because they would do well anyway, or the pupils who know they aren't going to do very well no matter how hard they try. The middlish kids who are quite bright but lazy, they don't seem to care all that much about the pressure and take it all in their stride, even though they are the ones the teachers are trying to motivate.

Goldmandra · 12/05/2013 23:26

The more each school pushes, the more the others have to push to keep up. It's a ridiculous vicious circle.

When DD1 was in Y6 the pressure was so distressing to her that, in the end, I rang and told the deputy head that they could either take it all off with immediate effect or I would withdraw her from school for the next two weeks by which time they would be over. They changed their tune overnight and she had no more problems. Other parents commented that this had helped their DCs too.

They don't seem to realise how destructive this sort of pressure can be. If they are giving the children a good grounding in the subjects they should need no more than just a couple of practise papers. teachers who try to cram more in at this stage are admitting that they have not done their job IMO.

The sooner more schools opt out, the better.

DD2 will be doing Y6 SATs next year. I think her HT is the bees knees but I'll tell her the same thing as I told DD1's school is the pressure starts to ramp up.

mummymeister · 12/05/2013 23:26

I hate sats. everything about them. my son went to bed at the usual time and will get up at the usual time tomorrow. he is a bright lad, passed his 11+ and off to grammar so tbh I couldn't give a damn how he does next week so long as he tries his best. as your dd gets older you need to introduce strategies to help her with her nerves because the one exam principle rather than continuous assessment is coming back and you/she need to be able to cope with this. teachers can only add so much value to their pupils and for me this is the key thing not the end of year results. try to be calm yourself and hopefully it will rub off a bit on your DD.

ilovesooty · 12/05/2013 23:35

I feel for your daughter and yes, such pressure is wrong.

However, the sad fact is that there are many teachers working in abject fear too. Under the new systems for PRP and assessment, experienced teachers are only a few short steps away from capability procedures and dismissal if they have a poor year results wise. If those teachers are at the top of the pay scale or on the upper pay scale some unscrupulous heads will do their best to get rid of them on financial grounds. In September pay portability will be abolished and it will be much easier for heads and governing bodies to drive down pay for any teacher attempting to move to a different school.

Heads themselves are under pressure from OFSTED and perceived poor performance will cost them their jobs too. All this results in SATs assuming an importance which has nothing to do with the welfare of the pupils sitting them.

Original poster
Bogeyface · 12/05/2013 23:42

I was the gifted kid that didnt give a toss. I performed well in everything and didnt listen to the proclamations of doom! DD is far more sensitive than me, and yes I was aware of needing to prepare her for her GCSE etc. But I am appalled that I seem to need to do this now, aged 11.

All this assessment of teachers based on the results of the child is wrong because it means that the good teachers who care more about their students could lose their jobs, but the results focussed ones who upset the children could end up doing really well!

OP posts:
TeamEdward · 12/05/2013 23:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TonysHardWorkDay · 12/05/2013 23:43

Schools and teachers are being put under immense pressure for results though. I'm sure most of you would have done anything to avoid your children going to a school that is 'failing.' Best option is to scrap the tests as they're not improving anything.

My best friend teaches secondary maths they ignore SATS and set their own 'quiz' for when the pupils start as children have not learnt but are trained to pass that exam. They then start training the kids to pass the exams they are judged on. He is the only Maths teacher from his PGCE course still teaching and has got a new job abroad as he detests the UK system. His old school is screwed as he is the only Maths teacher who can teach the full range of Maths A Level. Apparently the majority of schools have no teacher with an actual Maths degree. If your school does not offer further maths as an option it is not because of pupil choice but no one qualified to teach.

KansasCityOctopus · 12/05/2013 23:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ilovesooty · 12/05/2013 23:48

Kansas, the have the end result of pupils being put under pressure though. That's an inevitable side effect of the system.

Original poster
Bogeyface · 12/05/2013 23:49

im sorry, the teachers jobs or the underhanded methods of their employers are not the kids problems!

I do sympathise with those in that situation but yes, it isnt the kids problem!

OP posts:
Original poster
Bogeyface · 12/05/2013 23:50

sooty just because it is the end result, doesnt make it right.

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 12/05/2013 23:51

It isn't the kids' problem: I agree, but lay the blame at the door of Gove and Wilshaw, not with the teachers.

ilovesooty · 12/05/2013 23:51

It isn't right: I agree.

Original poster
Bogeyface · 12/05/2013 23:51

It also comes down to the fact that if someone is a good teacher then they wouldnt feel the need to pressurise the students in this way, in some cases leading to worse results than the students would otherwise get.

OP posts:
Original poster
Bogeyface · 12/05/2013 23:53

I agre that the system is wrong, but I think that only those with something to worry about will worry. A good teacher wouldnt put that pressure on because a) they dont need to and b) they know it is counter productive.

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 12/05/2013 23:55

I don't think it's as simple as that. A good teacher can have a poor year group to deal with. A good teacher might well be one of those knowing that they're too old/expensive/at risk. A good teacher might be in the position of their results being pulled down due to pupil absence. But at the end of the day the pupils end up stressed and unhappy for the sake of tests which have nothing to do with their well being or future.

ilovesooty · 12/05/2013 23:56

Cross post there. The trouble now is that even good teachers may well have reason to worry and fear for their futures.

wonderstuff · 13/05/2013 00:01

SATS are a massive waste of time, so much pressure is put on junior schools cheating is anecdotally believed to be widespread. My secondary re did the SAT tests and our year 7 pupils were up to a level below the published results. It doesn't benefit the kids, it's a stick to beat the teachers with it messes up the year 6 curriculum as the spend up to now training for the test and after half term try to fit in all the non examined stuff. It stuffs up transition to secondary because the kids do much less maths and English after SATS, so there is a gap of several months where little core subject is taufpght and they need to be banned Angry

loopydoo · 13/05/2013 00:03

If SATS are to assess teaching levels in schools, lets test the teachers rather than the kids! Exams for the teachers would surely show how much they know and they could have different papers.....class teaching, grammar, maths, pastoral care etc.

The govt. would get a much better picture of good and bad teachers doing that than from a week of pressurised SATS....for which schools just teach the kids how to pass the tests.

juniper9 · 13/05/2013 00:13

One problem we have is that our year 2s are hot housed and perform better than they should do. When they reach year 6, they should have made at least two levels' worth of progress, which for many is not achievable as the year 2 Sats weren't accurate.

Our year 6 teacher have the task of getting some of the children up by 4 sub levels in one year, compared with the expected 1.5.

I'm not a year 6 teacher, but I still have had my fair share of stupid meetings this year. At one point I was in trouble because my class hadnt made enough progress, then later I was in trouble because they had made too much progress Hmm When my class did well last year on the qca paper, the results were dismissed as being a fluke (for half the class...) yet when some of the children didn't catch up as much as they'd like then I got my wrist slapped.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

wonderstuff · 13/05/2013 00:19

And in turn the secondaries are judged by the year 6 SAT which again aren't a true reflection.

I read a blog recently calling for a 'teachers spring' get rid of league tables and govt. interference, instead have teachers renewing a licence to teach based on a min amount of CPD and engage a education equivalent to NICE recommending evidence based teaching practices.

Goldmandra · 13/05/2013 00:20

I think juniper's post says it all.

Stupid, pointless system which causes no end of unnecessary stress.

Original poster
Bogeyface · 13/05/2013 01:14

So...the kids are stressed, the teachers are stressed...who wins?

OP posts:
uniqueatlast · 13/05/2013 07:22

As Mr Wilshaw said, if teacher's morale is low then he must be doing a good job. Morale is at rock bottom ergo he thinks the he and Gove are doing a good job. Hmm

The man is a wanker.

marriedinwhiteagain · 13/05/2013 07:33

My children are older - 18 and 15. I don't remember any fuss or streess over SATs although DS switched system in Yr3 but dd stayed util Y6 and because she had her seconadary offer, based on externak tests, before the SATs they were entirely irrelevant anyway. What is there to stress about - all they do is test what a child has learnt over 7 years. Our DCs primary always scored close to 100 across the board and didn't seem to make much. Fuss they just got on with the business of teaching and so the children learnt well.