Struggling with behaviour

[Wizomania]

My AD is nearly 5 and has been with us since she was about 15 months old. Her birthday will be before she goes back to school and she has done her first year in primary school.

She is very clever and funny - I love her so much. But I am really struggling with some of her behaviour.

She is very strong willed, and I know in many ways that is a good thing - I am a massive people pleaser and I don't want that for her. But she will just not listen to me. For example this morning we were at the park for about half an hour before going out (to something that she has been looking forward to for a while). I gave her plenty of warning - 10, 5, 2 and one minute. But she she just refused to leave the park. I tried to empathise - the park is fun and she doesn't want to leave. Eventually I had to prise her off the swing. She then grabbed onto the climbing frame and I had to prise her off that. For context we are on holiday at the moment at a caravan site she is very familiar with, and we can almost see the park from our caravan.

We talked about it after and she said she didn't want to leave the park. She also said (when asked) that she listens better to my wife (her other mummy) because she likes her better than me, which was obviously quite upsetting.

I know the behaviour doesn't sound like much. But it has been going on for a few months now. And it has been me that's had to deal with it much more than my wife. I've had her screaming leaving the park near our home, getting changed after swimming, I had to carry her out of school once. It sounds a lot like it's transitions, and it might be partly, but my wife doesn't have these issues. And there are other examples bit I can't exactly think of them now!

The three of us talked a while back about listening, but it hasn't really helped. I try to empathise and also to use firm boundaries. I also try to give clear instructions, "it's time to go, please come with me."

At risk of making this the longest post ever I took a year off when she moved in, but she really struggled when I went back to work. I am not full time but do some 12 hour shifts (3 or 4 a month). Whenever I do bedtime it is really difficult for her to let me leave her bedroom. A few months ago I asked if she is scared I won't come back and she said yes. Bedtimes have improved somewhat since then.

Any advice you have would be amazing. Both for how to handle her and how to cope myself as I find this very upsetting.

Just adding this:
I suspect this has a lot to do with it, but am struggling to know how to put it into practice. https://www.janetlansbury.com/2018/01/age-4-seems-like-another-planet/

Firstly you need to stop being a people pleaser.

Personally she wouldn't be going to the park tomorrow as you should not have to negotiate with her.

So a day off from the park, then you explain carefully that you will be doing x y and z the next day and if she agrees / understands x y and z after the park, then she can go to the park.

If she plays up again the next time she gets to the park, then it's 2 days before she goes to the park again. and so on.

Of course you could always do the park at the end of the day, having done x, y and z first.

You are the parent be one

do you believe her teacher at school discusses with the children that they are doing English before Assembly etc. No.

I didn't say but we have already made it clear that if she can't listen when it's time to leave then there will be no park.

I can accept that there might be areas where my parenting isn't perfect, but I'm well aware that I am the parent. If it was as simple as that I wouldn't have posted.

do you believe her teacher at school discusses with the children that they are doing English before Assembly etc. No.
Not discuss as such, but any teacher worth their salt will know that there are some children in the class that need support around transitions, and provide visual timetables, now and next cards, extra warning before moving on, providing an element of choice (something arbitrary like writing with a pen or pencil) so the child doesn't feel like they have no control etc. It is likely that this child has some level of additional need, because adopted children do more often than not. Even if it's 'only' attachment and developmental delays caused by early childhood trauma giving her the emotional regulation skills of a toddler. These need support, yes with clear boundaries, but not with punishment.

What isn't really clear from the op is the extent to which this child has difficulty with transitions generally, compared to whether they are chancing their arm for more park time with the 'easier' parent. Either way, here are some suggestions from someone who has been there. I hope some of these work for you. You can even combine all of these together.

• Dysregulation may be building internally over an extended period and is unleashed at the point you choose to leave. Rather than withdrawing the park, go to the park for ten minutes only. Make it clear before you even go to the park that you are only going for a short time, because of the difficulties she has leaving the park, and that you will build up the time if she manages to leave calmly after ten minutes, because you want to support her.
• Don't give a countdown if this isn't working, and definitely don't use a countdown if your child struggles with numbers and time in general. Effective ways I found to 'give notice' that makes the child feel like they are still in control are:
• Say 'We will be leaving soon. You only have time to go on one more thing. Which thing would you like to go on?'
• Ask her how many swings (or slides) she wants to do before leaving. Or if you think she will come up with a number that is too big then give a closed choice like 50 or 100 swings. 100 swings only takes a couple of minutes. Count with (for) her then give her loads of praise for having managed such a lot of swings.
• Rather than focusing on leaving the park, focus on the next thing, ideally something appealing. 'We're going to go and see other Mummy now', 'we're going home to put your favourite show on TV', or if she'd like more choice, 'would you like to play with your toys at home now, or would you like to choose a book for me to read you?'
• Piggy back someone else's leaving time. Make an agreement with other parents that you'll all leave together. You might be surprised how many of them are also looking for the right moment to get their child out.
• Coincide leaving time with snack time. This is not food as a reward, this is an unconditional healthy snack that just happens to coincide with walking out of the park. If the park is small enough, just stand at the gate so she can pick it up on the way out. I also did this for party bags at the end of a birthday party so that children would leave my house when I wanted them to.
• When the time comes to leave, support any big feelings she is showing but stay calm and neutral about the decision to go that is not going to change. Don't apologise or enter any kind of negotiation. The language should be along the lines of, 'I know it's hard for you to leave the park'. 'I can see this has made you sad'.

I'd recommend the book, How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk.

I would also try not to take it to heart when she says she prefers her other mummy. Kids often push hardest against the parent they feel closer to.

Hi, I don't know if you have heard of "demand avoidance", which is where direct demands produce a meltdown? It doesn't sound entirely like a meltdown, but the principle is the same - you don't make direct demands or load on more and more demands (which escalates them further). Instead you never make a direct demand eg "we are leaving in 5 minutes" - instead you say things like "would you like to run to the gate or hop?"

I have a daughter who has full blown PDAS (Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome) so I do understand how frustrating it is.

Don't lock horns - think of creative ways to get what you want without any demands, time limits, bribes, that sortbof thing. Instead offer options.

Are you an adoptive parent?

I love your posts, your advice is brilliant. You sound like me, before I was too jaded by two decades of adoption. I think I will just go with the extremely lazy option of everything you say!

Yes, of all my two children’s disabilities, syndromes, disorders and diagnoses, the PDA is the absolute kicker. It is the hardest thing to live alongside.

Thank you. ❤️ Just the one decade for me. I've had my fair share of struggles but we're in a really good place right now. Still all of the teen years to come though, so ask me again in ten years.

Edit: I meant to quote your other post and now I can't change it. I think we all know the answer to this question though.

Yes, I got it. Your reply was helpful and great. I’m impressed that you’re not burned out 10 years in. It’s good to read that you are in a good place.

I have a nearly 5 year old as well and transitions are hard - although in our case it's the same for both me and my husband. Everyday is different, so we use many of the tips mentioned on this post.
In addition I wanted to add:

• rituals: when we leave the playground we have a little "ritual", he will ride his scooter down a ramp and climb over a gate (short one). So I remind him that it's time to go ride down the ramp
• more recently we starting working on "trust" and keeping a promise. We read books about trust and the importance of keeping a promise and talked about how my son would feel if mummy promised him something but then didn't do it. He is very good at recognizing emotions, so this works for him, but may not work with everyone. Then the next step was that before we go to the swimming pool or the playground we "make a deal" that we need to leave by a certain time. When the time comes I remind him that it's time to go, he usually will play up for a bit, but then I remind him that we made a deal and how it would make me feel if he didn't stick to it etc. It took a while for him to get it and I used the first few times to reinforce how important it is to keep your word and for mummy to be able to trust him.

Over time it is getting better and having to carry him out of places is now less frequent. But changes can trigger anxiety which can manifest as defiance in the case of our LO. So in addition to putting things in place to make transitions easier we also try to understand what is behind the behaviour and address it. Like OP did regarding bed time.

As an example, we recently went on holiday. On the last day we starting packing up. LO packed his toy bag, went and sat in the car on his own and refused to come out even though we were still packing and needed at least 1h more. I figured out that it was probably because he was scared we were going to leave him behind. So me and my husband reassured him that we were a family and we were leaving together and we wouldn't leave anyone or any toy behind, so we had to make sure we took everything with us and we needed his help. And then he came out.

Enjoy the rest of the summer break!

Wow, thanks everyone for the responses. I'll be honest I was a bit upset by the first response, and then of course worried that I was falling into the 'gentle parenting' trap (though I know that's not what is meant by gentle parenting experts). Anyhow I can't count the number of times I remove toys which are distracting, for example. But I feel somewhat reassured that while I'm not perfect (but then who is?) I'm not a disastrous parent either.

Anyway, there are some really useful tips here that I will consider. I don't have time to reply individually but I am really grateful for all the practical suggestions.

do you believe her teacher at school discusses with the children that they are doing English before Assembly etc. No

They absolutely should be. I am a teacher and I start every day by explaining the timetable which is also displayed visually. Plenty of children need this support, not just care experienced ones, and it helps them to be calm and handle transitions more easily.
I'm also a parent to adopted children and we have always explained what is happening and when. It doesn't require a long discussion but just explaining what is happening so they don't feel anxious or unsure about things.
It's not about pandering to the child - it's about supporting them.

I wonder if "strong willed" actually means anxious and in need of control, and that she is less anxious with your wife, because she comes across as more of a leader, which helps your daughter to feel safe.

Some parents state boundaries and choices as final, while with other parents they feel like there may be more - unsaid - options. The latter is a problem for anxious children. I would be brief, clear and firm. You are her rock, you do not wobble.

I would give less warnings. If you give 5, they become meaningless, because a 4 year old has not sense of time. Go with "we are leaving in 5 minutes" and "okay, 10 more swings, then we are off". (100 is too abstract). Be ready to leave after the 10 swings and don't start packing bags then. Stand right next to the swing with an air of "we are leaving now". If she does not comply, pick her up and carry her. Do not negotiate and empathise, but give her something positive to focus on like "Now we go home and play in the bath" or "race you to the gate".

I would not withdraw going to the park. The next day is too far off for a 4 year old and the physical movement helps her regulate.

For while, we told our children the plan for the day several times during the day (eg. We have breakfast, go to the park, come back for lunch, go back the park, have dinner, bath, bed. Tomorrow we do the same."). You could try that?

Do you do "special time" with your daughter? It was developed by Webster-Stratton (The Incredible Years). It is 10 minutes daily play, 1-2-1, with an alarm (no extension!). Your daughter chooses what she wants to do with you (dancing, drawing, roughhousing, cuddling - anything non-competitive without screens). Close the door and switch off your phone - no interruptions. This is not the same as regular playing with your child. This is to help attunement, connection, emotional regulation and cooperation and might help your daughter to develop trust and ease transitions. Children LOVE it. Both, you and wife can do it. You could do every other day, or your daughter gets two special times per day.

It is tough to hear that your child prefers your partner. My 5 year old preferred me and told my husband often. For years now, he has been her favourite person in the world. Your daughter might mean "I feel safer with my other mummy". That is something you can work on.

I adoption there is a concept called "splitting", where the traumatised child makes one parent (usually the more involved parent) the object of their negative feelings. The child is nice to the other parent, who thinks their partner is crazy when she complains about the child's behaviour. The 2nd parent starts to think the problems are due to how her partner parents, eventually causing huge rifts between the two.

This is text book adopted child behaviour. The child acts out with the parent they trust most. I had it with my daughters - my husband had a very different experience. But they needed me more

What worked for us was something called filial therapy.

Good point! We also had our fair share of splitting, but much later. At a young age, my daughter felt more secure with me, because she had made very difficult experiences with men and I am more bossy than my husband, so I felt more secure.

Worth considering in the OP's situation, I think.

There's a lot go think about here - thank you all.

My wife and I have very different strengths, and she has said that when our little girl gets to the preteen years I'll probably be the preferred parent as I'll be much better at talking about friendship issues etc. But it is true that I am the 'easier' parent. For a while after she moved in I thought I was accepting all of her emotions but was actually panicking about how to fix them. I have worked hard on that over the past couple of years but it's possibly still having an impact. My wife commented that I tend to spend a while trying to coax my little girl.

It's interesting you said about the strong willed/anxious thing @onlytherain I do feel she is quite anxious. Although her foster carer described her as strong willed before she had ever met us! (Saying that she also said a one year old would try to manipulate us.) I have felt like maybe she doesn't feel that safe with me for reasons that people have mentioned above.

Anyhow I will continue to think about all of this. I am really grateful for these responses. A couple of better days and a bit of perspective has also helped. I will do the best I can but nothing will be fixed instantly. We have been doing 'pinkie promises' about good listening and so far that is helping.

I will also look into the special time thing @onlytherain - it sounds really good.