Cornell.

[poppymango]

Something has struck me about this repulsive and terrifying business at Cornell University (please google if you don't know what I'm talking about - be warned, it is very disturbing).

It's only three years since the Gisele Pelicot case hit the news. It was monstrous, and so shocking because of the number of seemingly ordinary, outwardly respectable men involved in both the direct crimes and the wider chat group. Women were shocked, terrified, and angry. Men were very keen to stress that these demons were outliers, not all men etc.

These Cornell lads would have been in their late teens at the time. As it was such an extreme case which made headlines around the world, I would be very surprised if it wasn't on their radar in some way (Ivy league bound as they were, I'm sure they had at least some knowledge of current events).

And yet, instead of reading the story with horror, thinking how exceptionally evil it is to do that to someone, they appear to have thought "...wait, I can do that?"

I wonder if they consciously looked into rape conviction stats and decided they could probably get away with it. I wonder if they said all the right things to their mothers, girlfriends, and teachers about consent and respect, while secretly fantasising about this. I wonder how old they were when they first watched hardcore porn, and whether this kind of fantasy featured in their viewing habits. I wonder if they'd always hoped they'd get the chance to do it, even if they were too scared to orchestrate the situation themselves.

How many boys and men fantasise about exactly this, but seem to all the world like fine upstanding gentlemen. How many of them do we know? How can anyone watch a new story like that of Gisele Pelicot, and the similar cases that have since come to light, and be anything other than revulsed? These men clearly weren't.

I'm just so concerned at how many very young men take part in this sort of behaviour as soon as they are able to. For every man that does it, there must be many more who haven't, but want to - and every one of these men is only pretending to be outraged at cases like Cornell and Gisele Pelicot. They learn the accepted response, but secretly they're entering these women's names into PornHub in hopes that someone will have recorded and uploaded it.

Sorry this is such a long post. It's just an observation that has really given me chills. There is no way they see women as fully human, never mind equal.

Men are so disappointing.

I have a 16 year old son and I really want to talk about this case with him, especially the inaction of the other men in the chat, it’s so hard to know how to frame these conversations in a way that’s a joint conversation, as he’s not hugely communicative (an issue in itself) and I don’t want it to turn into a one sided lecture. I’m wondering whether to stage a conversation with my DH and have him lead on the inaction and see if it seems more natural and influential that way?! (I say stage as I can’t say rape cases are out usual topic of dinner conversation, we have a younger child).

It is horrifying. And yet, somehow, it is becoming normalised.
And honestly, I think we are all part of the problem in some way. The victim blaming. The misogyny in our tabloids. The way women are questioned about what they wore, where they were, how much they drank, whether they flirted. And yet we still buy the papers and read the headlines. We are just not outraged enough.
The President of the US and a US Supreme Court Justice have both faced allegations of sexual assault. In the UK, the King’s brother has faced no criminal consequences in relation to allegations of sexual misconduct. Sarah Everard was murdered by a serving police officer who had previously been known to colleagues as “the rapist”.
And what do we tell our daughters?
Don’t walk home alone.
Don’t travel at night.
Watch your drink.
Share your location.
Carry an alarm.
Be careful.
Be vigilant.
Protect yourself.
But how much do we actually teach our sons about consent?
When I was at university, I remember hearing perfectly “decent” young men say that if a girl flirted with them and then said no, she “didn’t know what she wanted”. That it was a “grey area”.
It isn’t a grey area.
If someone says no, you stop. If someone changes their mind, you stop. Flirting is not consent.
I came across this on Instagram, posted by a student at Oxford, and it really struck me:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Dd4pjwds0lJ/?hl=en
I just keep thinking that we spend so much time teaching our daughters how to avoid being assaulted, rather than teaching our sons what consent actually means.
Surely we need to be much more angry about this.

Absolutely horrific, that poor girl. What a disgusting group of men.

We’ve had a minor version of this ourselves. Group of boys sponsored to do a top level sport at DDs school. A group of them treated girls horrifically misogynistic comments etc. Girls too scared to complain. Dd got persuaded to “front” reporting it. Statements were taken from the girls and many of the decent boys too. Head horrified expulsion promised.

What happened in the end? Nothing. Can’t risk the boys futures in the sport now can we?

I think there’s an interesting conversation to be had about conformity as a starting point. US Frat communities are set up to demand loyalty with a whole series of tests to prove you’re committed enough to join in the first place. I went to a women’s college in the US for a while so although I don’t have direct experience I recall hearing about hazing rituals at other colleges. Also there are plenty of middle aged men walking around with their Greek house blazoned across their sweatshirts which shows how enduring the loyalty can be. The U.K. may not have that system but there are other “team” organisations that might push for a similar loyalty

The other tricky aspect about this case is the level of impairment through alcohol that the victim reports even before she got to the party. The criminal justice system really, really expects absolute clarity from victims and any haziness really works against that. The men really seem to fall back on “ we had no reason to believe that she was anything other than willing” rather than taking steps to establish enthusiastic consent. That’s even before you get to judgements in society about what kinds of women get drunk and go to frat parties.

It will be interesting to see what the nature of the communication was between the extended group and I hope they can recover those Snapchat messages. Apparently one the guys messaged her a day or two later to apologise for” how things went down”. It’s a tough job to unpick all this though and I don’t envy anyone investigating at this stage with all the attention that this has attracted.

The criminal justice system really, really expects absolute clarity from victims and any haziness really works against that.

Even when there are eight of them and they are snapchating their friends? Is it really OK for them all to just assume that it's fine because she didn't explicitly say no? Is the UK law is any different in this respect? I'm assuming not given the number of cases where strangling has been framed as 'consensual sex gone wrong'?

Maybe the problem is that concern about some sexual practices is framed as prudishness?

Authorities in the U.K. covered up the mass rape of children by predominantly Pakistani rape gangs. If social workers, teachers, nurses, doctors, police, government officials, councillors and counsellors protect rapists I can well imagine young men would protect their associates, friends and peers.

The public had to crowd fund an inquiry last year to help raped children get justice. So no it really doesn’t surprise me.

Men do get away with it. In fact most men in the U.K. get away with rape.

I just posted this on another thread. How many men have a secret sexual basement?

minwallamodel.com/article/ten-steps-to-building-a-secret-sexual-basement/

If that is the Evans case that it is a very much abridged version of events.

And I believe that he is guilty and shouldn't be playing football.

It was quite a few years ago and I can't remember exactly the name of the individual etc, so yes my explanation probably misses out a lot of things I'd have been aware of at the time. I definitely firmly believed that he was guilty and fully expected the supposedly decent men around me to think the same. I remember at the time arguing that if the football club wouldn't/couldn't legally sack him surely other footballers could send a message by refusing to play with/against him and fans could cancel their season tickets etc. But I was basically told that was all a bit much and 'nobody really knows the truth'.

It's not the only time I've heard people argue against consequences for abusers/rapists on the basis that it could just have been a mistake/'there's 2 sides to every story' etc and if we punish that no man is safe.

I volunteer with a teenagers, have a teenage son and know a lot of boys/young men. Most of them are lovely and have the potential to be part of the solution. I don't actually think this behaviour is inherent in men. But I do think that the culture that has prevailed so far essentially tells men and women that it is 'just how things are' and makes it all too easy for the bad ones to get away with it and the not-as-bad ones to say nothing. If every man called it out every time they saw another man behave inappropriately, and every rapist was properly punished, men would think more carefully about consent/appropriate behaviour. It sounds so simple that you have to ask why the hell it's not already happening.

That was a number of years ago and on the back of it, many changes were made. Not the least, that the first person to interview a concerned female student is not the male PR officer. I think they have learned lessons. Shame they needed to be learned in the first place but this is all public knowledge with a lot of material that can be found on the net.

What is this ‘move on nothing to see here?’

It doesn’t matter that it was a number of years ago! It’s only come to light internationally now and people are rightly disgusted, and I for one certainly don’t believe that these misogynistic attitudes have changed, they just can’t get away publicly with it now.

I would love to have a conversation with one of the students that saw the Snapchat and try to find out what actually went on in his head. We can say they didn't care or don't see women as any more than objects etc, but I'd be interested to see it from their side. How can they justify it to themselves and live with that decision to either join in or not call the police to report it.

I just can't imagine seeing something like that chat and not caring or doing something. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing anyone could say that would make me agree with what any of them did (bar one who apparently went to the police about it). My first and continuing reaction is anger, disgust, sadness, but maybe if we can learn why they thought it was ok, then we can work out how to tackle these issues more effectively. I'm probably wrong though.

Dd just been yelled at by a carful of student twats 🙄. What is wrong with men? As she says it’s bad anyway but she bloody lives here and theyre just visiting students 🙄. At least the rugby team have been banned from the local pubs - for spiking girls. Honestly it was bad when I was a teen but depressingly it’s worse now.