The minefield of secondary school

[Chapternew]

I had a reasonable idea of the schools I wanted to visit, until a thread opened my eyes to behaviour policies and the extent they can dictate life out of school. A school can deny a child the right to carry any phone at all after school for example, which a) I didn’t know they could do, and b) just wouldn’t work for our family. Granted, this is an extreme example and maybe I’ve been living under a rock to assume behaviour policies were much of a muchness, school-based, and it’s how a school genuinely responds on the ground that matters.

In my area, school visits are starting right now. I’d rather know of any dealbreakers in advance, so spent an exciting evening checking each school’s behaviour policy. What a rabbit hole! There are detailed lists of contraband, categories of offences, internal exclusions, reset rooms, red cards, categories of detentions, pyramids, tables of allowed offences frequencies. Schools use various phrases for isolation rooms, “re-education” kept popping into my head! Secondary is a minefield.

Is behaviour so much worse now or have I been hoodwinked by news or social media? If there are clear consequences, why is behaviour so bad? The policies I viewed listed consequences ranging from the most trivial matters such as having a fake set of eyelashes in a locker, up to extremely serious matters.

Obviously I understand that a policy on vandalism for example, doesn’t mean vandalism might not ever occur, but if it’s acted upon, it sets a path leading up to exclusion. What am I missing and please forgive my naivety. I am trying to understand.

Its so true that how schools communicate and their attitude to parents is also part of the equation. It doesn't help when teachers won't respond to polite emails from parents who are often supportive. At least at first.

I’m not calling you a liar @Chapternew

If you don’t want to say where you are then we can’t look at online policies of schools near you. I genuinely would be surprised if policies mentioned the kinds of sanctions you mention though.

I am not disputing that there are some actions by schools that don’t make sense. I am not saying all schools are perfect. But I do think it is worth speaking out against the prevailing narrative (often from over-dramatised stories in the media – which may be where you are getting some of your info?) that:

• All secondary schools have draconian policies around behaviour
• Students can get sent to isolation or put into detention for minor issues like having a missing button
• It’s impossible to be a student in secondary school and not get detentions

My DD never got any kind of detention in her school career. I imagine there were times when she looked out of a window or had a button not done up on her shirt. Pretty sure the only times DS2 got detention were when he repeatedly failed to hand in HW or was late to school. Both quite reasonable IMHO as I told him (and tbf he didn’t disagree).

Since you ask, I live in the East Midlands (no big secret as I have mentioned this before) – here the policy list for a school in nearby town where colleagues have taught https://www.tuptonhall.org.uk/policies and here is the policy list https://www.wbs.school/page/?title=Policies&pid=103 from another well-regarded school in my area where many friends’ DC have gone. I note that in neither case does the behaviour policy mention detentions for missing buttons or having a makeup bag in your backpack or looking out of the window. They mention uniform, but that’s bc they have one and expect it to be worn. I think that’s reasonable. They mention disruption but in fact in both cases policies make it clear that a warning – or more than one warning – would be given before detention in all but the most serious cases.

And I promise you that despite what you may think, students at these schools, and at all others where I know enough about the school to know this (quite a long list), are not sent to detention for the reasons you state. It’s not detailed in the behaviour policies in the way you say you have found in schools local to you and it is not enacted in fact in the classroom.

You can choose not to believe me of course. That’s your privilege.

This is a sensible and measured post and accords with my experience as a secondary teacher.

Schools don't sanction students for the sake of it, but because behaviours get in the way of learning, make the student and other people unsafe, damage the building etc.

Having said that, there can definitely be a mismatch between any specific student and the regime in a particular school, so it's worth doing research, while not panicking.

@clarythank you. I am only able to have a very brief glance through on my phone right now. A few things jumped out at me:

• advance warning of detention (rather than same day with notification to parents at school’s discretion),

-the list of dangerous contraband items for searches (also included with ones near me and rightfully so) but I couldn’t see things like chocolate/false lashes/make up bags being sanctioned for being in school - not using them, just having them, -more chances before a sanction (e.g. one school after the first chance the child is excluded for half a day loses their breaks and has an after school detention, another offers no chance).

There is a huge disparity between what you’ve sent at first glance and what I’m looking at at schools near me (all state comprehensives). Are schools influenced by what other schools in their area do?

Most of what I know about comes from the media, which is why I asked the question as it will probably show exaggerated cases. I’m interested in why there’s such extremes with dangerous behaviour on one hand and over scrutiny of minor things on the other. I don’t know how big those issues are in practice - I haven’t really looked beyond what I’ve heard in the media or SM, until now. I’d just assumed there was an increase in both, just as other issues like underfunding, teacher admin, increased pressure on pupils and staff from the curriculum and testing, policies from DfE that schools need to respond to in ridiculously tight timescales, parents and teachers trying to navigate support for SEN, long covid’s affect on attendance, social media use, increase in mental health issues and self harm etc.

I’m interested in how a school deals with violence, bullying, abuse of teachers - on the ground. How do I find that out? What questions should I ask? In short, how safe is my child in school from the two extremes?

I’m interested in how pragmatic a school is, but how do I find that out until an issue occurs? If a child’s shoe broke and it takes a few days to order in new ones, will they be put in isolation for not adhering to policy or will school allow black trainers for a few days? Discipline in schools is obviously a good thing, but when it goes too far over tiny things, I think the scales have tipped too far and it becomes damaging.

Schools don’t always get it right. One of my detentions from school was for bunking a PE lesson. I bunked it because I had my period and we had to shower naked in a group. The PE teacher would check. This was normal to us.

I tagged you @claryto respond

Accidentally posted too soon.

I tagged @clarybecause of the policies they’d sent. I’ve tried to answer other posters in it too.

In general the strict schools are oversubscribed and so they are less likely to have the issues with violence and drug dealing etc.

kids who start at those schools who do have those issues get excluded quickly.

if a lot of schools in your area have these type of policies then your area is probably

a urban
b historically underachieving.

Although you do get rural schools now that are going down those lines as to be honest if you crack down quite hard on uniform and behaviour you get much much less of the extreme bad behaviour and can then direct resources at/put those kids in nurture groups.

if you want a nurturing nice secondary you’ll find them in middle class areas with high ability intakes where the parents are all over the school for homework and gifted and talented stuff and where few problem families can afford to live.

Thats shocking.
There is something wrong with schools doing that, it's school not the flipping army.

The Government need to step in and get a grip. Same with the number of pupils who end up in the news over skirts being too short, today it was a girl without enough pleats in her skirt - really wtf and it always seems to be girls these policies are targeted at.

No. It teaches a teen to be anxious, triple checking everything and scared they will make a mistake.

It always seems to be girls these policies are targeted at.

My DD and mid-teen friends would say the same. I was trying to say it was more impartial for years, but she has pointed out a lot of ways that the girls' bodies have been compared (with each other; and also criticised for appearance in ways the boys really are not. Usually by female teachers as the men would run a mile from such comments, rightly). But this has been vehemently shot down on other threads.

Reset room? Red card? We just got detention.

Honestly if schools are going to get so picky over skirts they should ban them.
Simple.

It extends to shorts and swimming costumes...

The they comokain tge girls are wearing the trousers wrong, i.e. too tight.

(It would really help if "school" trousers came in womens sizes. Its near on impissible to find a good fitting pair)

Is your child planning on being very disobedient?!?

Surely M&S and the like do girls school trousers.

Baggy jeans are back in fashion, similar cut school trousers would make life easy

I generally support uniform but these rules are ridiculous that it would push me to scrap uniform

@Chapternew I have concerns as well. I have had older children go through secondary. They were ok on the whole. Then i had 2 other child one just finished her gcses. The pressure is awful. It effected my children's mental health quite badly. Ds was self harming. He took an overdose ended up in hospital never completed his gcses. Dd was suicidal although never acted on it
She was self harming. The safeguarding/attendance officer as ds school was absolutely awful. I won't explain it would be to long.

Dd never got detentions but the pressure was awful. I actually made a thread about it yesterday. My ds is in year 6 and I need to look at schools for him and I really don't want him going through what my other 2 children did. I'm trying to think of what schools saw run to strictly. don't mean to easy no rules ect but I don't want him scared to breath either.

My 2 children's schools where under united learning I'm woundering if I should avoid them. Its hard to know. Some things don't come to light until the child is at the school.

DD is an average height, average weight 13yo. We have 15-16yo girls trousers. They are getting too tight due to hips, and a bit short....

At dds school they could get detention if they got a question wrong/home work not 100% correct.

@Missbob you know government and schools like to blame mobiles for decline in youth MH but I'm convinced this sort of nonsense really can't be helping.

@BirdLandedonmyHead that's crazy, I have boys so never had to deal with girls trousers but I assumed they'd be similar to boys going up to age 18, which is really adult sized with kids labels to avoid the vat

A school near me operates like a prison camp - it would cause anxiety in my well behaved teen. Just walking round it was depressing. But it seems to help the cohort who attend. Their results are good but I really wouldn’t want to spend a week there tbh.

We travel a fair distance to a school which gets great results without having a dictator at the helm.

They really vary op - it’s also best to park up and watch kids arrive and leave in the morning/afternoon. The difference is incredible and the school that allows phones to be used in uniform (after they have left school premises) has incredibly well behaved kids leaving.

Also check out extra curric. The local prison camp school offers very little sport / drama etc - maybe more clubs would mean better child / staff relationships and more of a community feel? I think the best schools near me have good extra curric and the kids really like some of the staff as they get to know them better via clubs.

My teens school - a boy who lives 5
miles away forgot his blazer in year 7. He was very worried he would get into trouble. My child went with him prior to register to the head of year who wrote him a slip and emailed all his classes - thanked him for telling her immediately and he got on with his day.

The school is seen as ‘really strict’ but no idea why. Yes they have rules but speaking to staff and explaining an issue is handled with common sense. The staff have a cupboard of spare ties just in case. Honesty and accountability seems a higher priority to staff.