Thread 18 Starmer: All sides of the House agree apart from the Trump bootlickers

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5264338-thread-17-starmer-treading-softly?page=40&reply=142243865

Genuine questions @Rummly and @derxa:

• why do you think Starmer is weak?
• why do you think Johnson, Truss and Sunak would have done just as well?

Ha!

I said that the general impression of Starmer’s weakness with Trump is forming. Principally because he’s said very little if anything that’s critical of Zelensky’s treatment by Trump. I understand why Starmer can’t speak his mind, but I was referring to the impression, not the realities.

I think - guess, as anyone has to - that Johnson and Sunak would have approached this with their different personalities but would have ended up in much the same position as Starmer. Johnson, possibly, might have felt able to be a little more open about support for Ukraine because he championed the cause. He’s been there recently, as you no doubt know, and Ukraine’s keen on him.

I accept Truss is more useless all round. But I can’t see any reason to think that she would have done worse than Starmer given the few cards any UK PM held.

A bt crass here, but I think that if the visit goes ahead, we should channel our inner Scots. Line the roads, bear our arses and let him know what the people think.

God Truss and Johnson would have been awful, Sunak would have been okay perhaps.

Johnson threw away concessions on the EU Brexit agreement and the UK AUS deal that followed. Awful.

Truss a pushover.

Both pushovers, and I suppose Sunak did have more of spine in international matters

Look the US government is not going to leave the UN because it's quite useful to it. It may simply ignore it which it often has.

As for NATO, I wouldn't be optimistic. What Europe is probably doing now is writing a new security pact for some countries which gives the US a reason to drop out. They should have learned from Trump the first time when he cut funding for NATO and insisted other contributions came in. They did not. It's a failure that should really haunt and motivate people now.

Weirdly it's probably for the better. It's a blue water moment, surely ? Can't really fence sit on that one can you (Comrade Farage) ?

I think a lot of the big brains behind project 2025 completely and utterly missed the fact that Europeans are simply Americans with better food, manners and style. We are all of use forged in the shadow of conflicts that have invaded, occupied, bombed and destroyed all of us in a way that someone from Buttfuck, Missouri simply cannot fathom. Poke us and we tend to have very similar and visceral reactions. It's impossible Putin doesn't know this. However since it would suit his agenda, it's possible he forgot to tell The Donald. Indeed he may have rather underplayed Europes reaction to team Trump just to ensure they are compliant.

I don’t remember saying that Starmer is weak. I think he’s the opposite given the way he got rid of the Corbynite faction. I think that the PM is coached on how to behave in situations like meeting Trump and the three former PMs would have managed this in their different ways. I don’t think it’s about party politics and backing your favourite team. I back Keir Starmer because he’s the man in charge.

I said that the general impression of Starmer’s weakness with Trump is forming. Principally because he’s said very little if anything that’s critical of Zelensky’s treatment by Trump

It is called diplomacy. Trump needs to be kept onside, like it or not. Even Zelenskyy himself is being polite and diplomatic and not overtly critical of Trump in public. Is he weak?

I’m Scottish and don’t identify with this at all.

History will view Johnson more favourably if we end up having to rebuff Russia. The UK was quick to support Ukraine.

@SerendipityJane - forgive the language but it's the same old stuff about cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Except now the US are the burger eating surrender monkeys

@SerendipityJane - it may also regard him unfavourably as someone who scuppered a peace deal in 2022 when Ukraine was in a better position than now. I think he feels guilty

That claim has been thoroughly debunked as Russian disinformation

I don't think there was ever any peace deal to be done. That much is clear now. The only "peace" deal is what Trump is pushing. Ukraine waves good bye to the land seized forever.

As JHB repeated pushed the Quisling Tice (and she should have done it in Russian) "What part of the UK would you give up then ?". And I hope for all true patriots the answer - loud and clear - is none. Not one square inch.

How much land should Ukraine have given up ?

My goodness @Rummly you still cannot bring your self to praise a Labour politician!

No one knows how Bojo would have done, probably well, but Trump is a racist, Sunak not so good..

But to say Truss would have done similar to Starmer? thats ridiculous, Trump doesn't respect many women plus Truss, as proven in her premiership and since is an idiot... google her Cheese speech?

Starmer has gone far out of his way to back Zelenskyy, actions speak louder than words, so whilst other European leaders were critical of Trump, Starmer was on the phone to Trump and Zelenskyy, this will prove pivotal in getting these two back on side again.

UK has a few cards, Starmer played them all very well.

@DuncinToffee - i don't agree! We might find out in 30 years, assuming the UK is still intact

It's good actually. UK using Lancaster House, Italians working with the UK.

I hope it leads to effective decisions. Because that is Europe's terrible weakness. So in the sense this is co-ordinated in London, and the UK is using what statecraft it still has, is encouraging.

Let us all hope that Starmer can get European leaders to deliver good decisions on time.

That what’s I said.

And I don’t understand where this “pushovers” and “no spine” about Tories comes from.

All the guesswork about what might have happened with other PMs is no more or less plausible than guessing that Trump sat with his aides afterwards and said:

”Jeez, that Stammer guy. Nothing worth listening to. What a bore. He talks like a constipated Mr Bean. But he’s well up the EU’s exit hole and he’ll be a useful messenger boy, so I went easy on him. File the king’s invitation. But I’m not going unless it’s a summer. I want golf, not just weirdos I can’t understand.”

I doubt that was said. But it’s no more conjecture than the assessments of how previous PMs would have done.

Apologies Derxa, military legend and braveheart.

I still like the idea.

@Rummly - the pushover remark comes from the beer concessions given by Johnson in the UK AUS FTA. That was all him.

Equally, the same for fish in the EU TCA. And other examples are available. A good negotiator Johnson was not.

If you want a good example of a capable negotiator Tory PM the standard is Thatcher. And she was first class.

Beef.. not beer.

Before or after the Russia report and his visit to Lebedev's villa?

Don't forget Janey Godley and her sign!

I have praised Starmer. As I said here and on a different thread I gave him the win, especially as he turned up with unhelpful baggage about Trump.

What I’m not doing is agreeing that Starmer is somehow more engaging, persuasive or statesman like than his predecessors.

What would Truss have done that would have been so bad, if she had been PM? Agreed that Russia should have what it wants? I doubt it.

I’ll pass over the implications of Sunak doing worse because Trump’s a racist (and presumably Truss would have done worse because Trump’s a misogynist).