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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'I've been disowned and shamed for saying women footballers must be boen with ovaries' Oliver Brown in The Telegraph

121 replies

impossibletoday · 20/09/2026 08:42

A woman from Los Angeles

‘I’ve been disowned and shamed for saying women footballers must be born with ovaries’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/4c6e0d006499e2b7

‘I’ve been disowned and shamed for saying women footballers must be born with ovaries’

Exclusive: Elizabeth Eddy knew broaching controversial topic would prompt backlash, but did not expect ‘bullying’ from her own team-mates

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/4c6e0d006499e2b7

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Helleofabore · 21/09/2026 12:53

oldtiredcyclist · 21/09/2026 10:44

Prisca Chilufya was excluded from the 2020 Tokyo Olympics and the 2022 African Cup of Nations for the very reason that they have a male DSD. It has been obvious to me (and others) that these athletes have been deliberately sourced because of their (male) DSD and the physical advantages it gives them over women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisca_Chilufya

Thanks

I had seen conflicting articles but I would assume the Zambian Observer is likely to be taking that from an interview with Chilufya.

So, again, this should be taken as an admission that this person is male with a male body producing and processing testosterone from their testes.

And transferred to the Angels team in October 2025. So the same time that Elizabeth Eddy wrote her article.

I have confidence that this was significant to shaping the Gorden’s reaction.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 21/09/2026 13:39

Sorry, lost track...who is Gorden?

lcakethereforeIam · 21/09/2026 14:11

One of Eddy's former friends and team mates who denounced her.

I do like that Eddy is going against the flow.

Helleofabore · 21/09/2026 14:48

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 21/09/2026 13:39

Sorry, lost track...who is Gorden?

I think Gorden was the captain and was her friend.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 21/09/2026 14:55

Helleofabore · 21/09/2026 14:48

I think Gorden was the captain and was her friend.

Is she one of the two interviewing Prisca in that "how to be a transmaiden" video?

Morecoffeewanted · 22/09/2026 14:38

Thank you @Helleofabore for your very thorough historical dig on how we got into this mess.

I'm still working through it and found lots for me to consider in the Nature paper (Gender verification of female athletes). Jumping forward in the paper to 1990 / 1992 I note that a decision was made to include "individuals raised as females" to be when it set the stage for current problems like Castor Semenya and possibly other african sportsmen today.

The Nature paper specifically includes being "raised as a Female" and having 5a R2D as having "no unfair physical advantage" and should not be excluded or sigmatused.

Previously the term "sex imposters" was used in the paper but being male, and 5aR2D and "raised as a female" got around this (in the 1990 and 1992 groups in Monte Carlo and London)

"Masquerading men" were excluded but 5aR2D and "raised as a female" took them out of this category. The Nature paper doesn't make it clear that these are genetic males and been the victim of mis-sexing at birth.

Looking at the 1990 / 1992 symposia it seems to have been composed of the same group as the Nature paper. I am still reading some extra papers online though.

Helleofabore · 22/09/2026 17:57

Morecoffeewanted · 22/09/2026 14:38

Thank you @Helleofabore for your very thorough historical dig on how we got into this mess.

I'm still working through it and found lots for me to consider in the Nature paper (Gender verification of female athletes). Jumping forward in the paper to 1990 / 1992 I note that a decision was made to include "individuals raised as females" to be when it set the stage for current problems like Castor Semenya and possibly other african sportsmen today.

The Nature paper specifically includes being "raised as a Female" and having 5a R2D as having "no unfair physical advantage" and should not be excluded or sigmatused.

Previously the term "sex imposters" was used in the paper but being male, and 5aR2D and "raised as a female" got around this (in the 1990 and 1992 groups in Monte Carlo and London)

"Masquerading men" were excluded but 5aR2D and "raised as a female" took them out of this category. The Nature paper doesn't make it clear that these are genetic males and been the victim of mis-sexing at birth.

Looking at the 1990 / 1992 symposia it seems to have been composed of the same group as the Nature paper. I am still reading some extra papers online though.

Edited

The more you dig, the more your head explodes. But yes, this falsity that male people with DSDs (including 5ARD) who have testes producing testosterone that then go through androgenised puberty don’t have male advantage is ludicrous in the face of the Rio 800 m result. Plus the other obvious facts such as that these male people then have lengthy careers compared to female athletes and other advantages that seem to have never been considered.

The same panel feature often. Arne Lundquist (?) also then featured in discussions etc about letting castrated male people have access to the female category.

The term stigmatising appears often. Not once do I believe they considered the ‘stigmatising’ impact on female people to have ‘just not tried hard enough’ etc. I often wonder if Arne ever thinks about his success and just dismisses it as ‘it was a decision of the time’ like Julia Gillard did the other day.

YourWatermelonship · 22/09/2026 18:59

I would like to sit with Arne Lungqvist while he watches a video of one of Imane Khelif's fights in the last Olympics.

The logical conclusion of Lungqvist's work was that: a man punching a woman in the face to a cheering crowd and a fawning press.

Any decent person was / would be sickened by the sight. I wonder what Lungqvist thinks. We know that, sadly, many many people were okay with it.

FableAndFern · 22/09/2026 19:24

Mouldemort · 20/09/2026 18:10

Elizabeth Eddy is another bench-warming grifter who has been platformed (and paid) to attack women's leagues whose fans and participants support trans inclusion. No one had heard of her or Cunningham until they went anti-trans. There are literally no trans women in either league.

It's entirely legal in the UK to have teams which include members of two protected characteristics, so there is no law which prevents trans women playing alongside cis women, and excluding men. The same applies to Guides and the WI. It's up to the organisations if they want to do it.

https://defector.com/the-anti-trans-grifters-are-coming-for-the-nwsl

No. This is false. It is legal to form a group which has two protected characteristics and exclude people who don't have both those characteristics.

For example black lesbians. Members have to be both black AND lesbian. A white lesbian can't be included nor can a black man. A group for both women and trans identifying males will have no members as a person cannot be both a woman AND a trans identifying male. That's kind of the point.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 19:57

Morecoffeewanted · 21/09/2026 10:33

The bogus 'racist' claim is reinforced by this old Guardian article which claims that different ethnic groups have higher levels of testosterone.

The thinking being that african woman could therefore have higher levels than other racial groups.

That the higher level is because these are men competing in women's sport isn't even examined.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/mar/29/how-barbra-banda-got-caught-up-in-a-swirl-of-misinformation-and-double-standards

Babs Banda "did not take any gender test therefore did not fail any gender test" is worthy of the greatest proclamations of Newspeak.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 20:58

Helleofabore · 20/09/2026 20:21

THE OLYMPIC TIMELINE ON THE INCLUSION OF MALE PEOPLE IN FEMALE SPORT

Just to recap how we got here in my opinion

1992 - Dr. Arne Ljungqvist becomes a member of the IOC and continue to date an educational program to inform the IOC about scientific and
ethical issues related to laboratory-based gender verification.

1996 - Most major professional medical societies have passed resolutions against chromosome-based gender screening in sports.

1996-1997 - IOC World Congress on Woman and Sport passes a resolution to abandon gender verification at the Olympics. Women's Sports Foundation
publishes a policy statement against blanket chromosome screening in support of IAAF model. The Norwegian parliament outlaws gender verification in sport. The IOC Medical Commission is unconvinced and the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games is contractually committed to on-site, laboratory-based, gender veritication of all female althletes competing in women's events.

1997-1998 - Arguments for and against change are presented to the IOC Athlete Commission by Professor A. Liungqvist and Dr. B. Dingeon, respectively. Prince de Merode and Dr. Hay argue for their original policy of blanket gender verification at IOC-sponsored sporting events. Athletes Commission nonetheless calls for the discontinuation of the present system and rccommenda replacing it with a "reserve clause" system based on IOC Medical Commission intervention on an individualized basis, following scientific and ethical guidelines.

1999 - IOC Executive Board accepts unanimous recommendations of its Athletes Commission. Blanket gender verification screening of all female
athletes will not be conducted at the 2000 Millennia1 Games in Sydney, on a conditional basis for later review.

Importantly, for the 1996 Atlanta Olympics they surveyed the female athletes and found:

"At the time of testing, all female athletes at the Atlanta Games were offered a questionnaire written in both English and French asking whether in their view testing of females should be continued in future Olympics and whether or not
they were made anxious by the testing procedure. Of the 928 athletes who responded, 82% felt that testing should be continued and 94% indicated that they were not made anxious by the procedure. Forty-six athletes were made "anxious" by the testing requirements that preceded their competitive events.
No males were found to masquerade as females, and all females who were found to be SRY positive competed."

"Of the 928 athletes who responded, 82% felt that testing should be continued"

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

2003 - Stockholm Consensus proposal
"In 2003, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) Medical Commission, claiming guidance from “the best information available at the time,” decided to allow male transsexuals to compete in the women’s category. This decision was contingent upon several conditions to ensure fairness: a) the removal of their testes at least two years prior to competition; b) legal recognition as “female”; and c) hormone profiles aligned with those of natal females."

archive.today/F5HFc

2004 - May 2004 they announce that they will allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-approves-consensus-with-regard-to-athletes-who-have-changed-sex-1

2015 -Then in 2015, a campaign group including Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com web site) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

https://nequals8.com

^https://cgscholar.com/bookstore/works/race-times-for-transgender-athletes^

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

2016 -Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2021 - 2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

The IOC reacts by announcing a review.

The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. ie. They force the sporting federations to make the hard decisions that the IOC refuse to make.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf#_ga=2.219716894.621299853.1686571450-594927581.1678187184

They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The IOC is clear that they RECOGNISE that the inclusion of male athletes will be UNFAIR but their priority is inclusion. Richard Budgett said this.

The federations then develop their own policies. that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI, IBA and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23.

The WA have even stated that their new guidelines for the Olympics immediately excluded 13 males with DSDs with testosterone advantage from the competitions until those 13 male athletes chose to reduce their testosterone to 2.5 nmol/L for 2 years. 13 just in athletics competitions alone! (By the way, this reduction has already been shown to not eliminate unfair male advantage, but this is where we are at the moment.)

By the IOC removing the IBA from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

So, we know from the announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 that fairness was a lower priority to inclusion. It was along the lines of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

And the IOC and other organisations still claim that Semenya is a 'female with naturally high testosterone' to this day. Despite the world being easily able to find the evidence presented to the CAS that Semenya is MALE with 5-ARD and had tested with a testosterone level of 21nmol/L. NO female has that level and is healthy. They are likely to be gravely ill.

2025 - Kirsty Coventry announces that she will 'protect' women's sport and that a committee will review the evidence.

2026 UPDATE TO THE IOC FEMALE SPORTS CATEGORY ELIGIBILITY POLICY

Here is the statement:
https://www.olympics.com/ioc/news/international-olympic-committee-announces-new-policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-women-s-category-in-olympic-sport

here is the policy
https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/International-Olympic-Committee/EB/policy/policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-category-english.pdf

This is under the definitions section:

Sex: Either of the two categories, Male or Female, into which humans are divided according to their reproductive biology.

Biological Female (Female): An individual who, regardless of their legal sex or gender identity, experienced female sex development usually based on their XX-chromosomes, ovaries, and estrogenic hormones.

Biological Male (Male): An individual who, regardless of their legal sex or gender identity, experienced male sex development usually based on their XY-chromosomes, testes/testicles and androgenic hormones.

Fascinating to see all the faffing about with athletes removing their testes & having suppressed testosterone for 2 years as the broad policy for 10-15 years.
And then <BANG!>, in 2015 even that level of devotion to the cause for men to "become" women in the eyes of the sports authorities, is watered down to pure "ladyfeelz" as men just need to think they're women to be classed as women, in 2015.
Imagine that, the potential women needed to castrate themselves until 2015, but in the last decade all they've needed is weak tea social transitioning.
Pricking up the ears of Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges etc.
What a shit show.

Helleofabore · 22/09/2026 21:37

Remember, the IOC changed their policy based on a very flawed study from Harper.

https://nequals8.com

And I believe Ivy/Mckinnon was also included in that activist group presenting to the IOC as a philosophy lecturer. He was one of those who argued that because people used female language for him, it was cruel to exclude him from competing as a female athlete.

Flawed studies and misused philosophical belief.

N=8

https://nequals8.com

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 21:55

Helleofabore · 22/09/2026 21:37

Remember, the IOC changed their policy based on a very flawed study from Harper.

https://nequals8.com

And I believe Ivy/Mckinnon was also included in that activist group presenting to the IOC as a philosophy lecturer. He was one of those who argued that because people used female language for him, it was cruel to exclude him from competing as a female athlete.

Flawed studies and misused philosophical belief.

Rachel McKinnon, now that's a name I haven't heard since my deep dive into trans matters a few years back.
A real blast from the past.
While we're reminiscing about the dominant period of trans policy, who was that trans MMA/cage fighter who revelled in real damage?
Was he also on the board advising the thoughtful and rational sports authorities to allow transgender in after 2015, now even with their balls intact.
Whatever these activists were selling, the sports bodies were buying.
And then all that pressure before to drop sex testing.
Because the test <in and of itself> is racist and sexist.
In other words, a test that would weed out "sex imposters" is sexist because it's imposing a Western stereotype of sex, and is racist, because the vast majority of those sex imposters will be shown to be African DSD.
Whereas the test is the very opposite of sexist and racist, it's neutral and non judgemental.
The Emperor is wearing less than Sidney Sweeney.

Helleofabore · 23/09/2026 07:16

Were you thinking of Fallon Fox?

maximc · 23/09/2026 08:20

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 19:57

Babs Banda "did not take any gender test therefore did not fail any gender test" is worthy of the greatest proclamations of Newspeak.

The claim that women of African heritage have higher testosterone levels is very easy to test. It would be observed in practice all the time by endocrinologists working w diverse populations. To claim that Western medicine is practicised & accessed so rarely by black people that it does not know basic facts about them is a form of exoticising & othering black people that is racist in itself & quite ludicrous if you glance at the staff of almost any UK hospital.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 23/09/2026 08:23

Helleofabore · 23/09/2026 07:16

Were you thinking of Fallon Fox?

I try not to. But yes, Fox, McKinnon. They really made hay after that 2015 landmark decision to combine not testing for gender with permitting socially transitioned individuals into the female category.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 23/09/2026 09:08

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 20/09/2026 16:01

Trans women can't even play grassroots football in the UK with their mates (as fewer than 30 in a nation of 60m+ people were doing at the time of the ban).

But sure, during a rape epidemic where virtually no one's ever prosecuted for harming women, let's platform a cis bloke telling women what their bodies should be like. Proper feminism that.

Why not? Women who identify as trans play on women's football teams. If men who identify as trans are being prevented from playing on men's football teams, I am sure that most posters on this board would support any campaign you started against this unlawful discrimination.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 23/09/2026 09:19

Morecoffeewanted · 21/09/2026 10:33

The bogus 'racist' claim is reinforced by this old Guardian article which claims that different ethnic groups have higher levels of testosterone.

The thinking being that african woman could therefore have higher levels than other racial groups.

That the higher level is because these are men competing in women's sport isn't even examined.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/mar/29/how-barbra-banda-got-caught-up-in-a-swirl-of-misinformation-and-double-standards

It's staggering that that article was published in the Guardian. It reads like something you might expect from a eugenicist from a previous century.

oldtiredcyclist · 23/09/2026 09:52

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 23/09/2026 08:23

I try not to. But yes, Fox, McKinnon. They really made hay after that 2015 landmark decision to combine not testing for gender with permitting socially transitioned individuals into the female category.

There are a lot of people who have never heard of Canadian cyclist Michelle Dumaresq who started competing in 2001. He won several Canadian championships and competed at World Championships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

Michelle Dumaresq - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

Helleofabore · 23/09/2026 10:33

oldtiredcyclist · 23/09/2026 09:52

There are a lot of people who have never heard of Canadian cyclist Michelle Dumaresq who started competing in 2001. He won several Canadian championships and competed at World Championships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

And Mianne Biggar (who has now supported female single sex sport and was vocal in that support a few years ago) and a man called Caroline Layt who was given best female player awards pre 2010 if I remember correctly.

There has been early athletes doing this that were before the public was aware.

Helleofabore · 23/09/2026 10:36

These early male athletes partly escaped notice because of people’s use of female language when discussing / reporting about them. It is yet another reason to reject use of any female language for these male people.

It also shows just how it negatively impacts female people collectively which is the very opposite of ‘respectful.’

Helleofabore · 23/09/2026 13:51

CURRENT COUNT (2026) MALE ATHLETES TAKE 2293 GOLD MEDALS IN FEMALE SPORTS CATEGORIES IN THE USA

https://concernedwomen.org/concerned-women-research-finds-increase-in-trans-identifying-men-winning-gold-medals/

Concerned Women Research Finds Increase in Trans-Identifying Men Winning Gold Medals

22nd September 2026

Concerned Women for America Legislative Action Committee (CWALAC) found that trans-identifying males have stolen over 2,293 gold medals from women and girls in the United States and is calling on Congress to protect biological women and girls from this injustice.

It goes on…

”With data compiled from HeCheated on recorded incidents of natal males’ disruption in female events since the mid-1980s, CWALAC research found that:

Trans-identifying males have stolen over 2,293 gold medals from women and girls in the United States, pushing each rightful champion down to second place.

Trans-identifying male athletes have stolen over $501,498 in prize money from women in professional sports.
In California alone, over 611 women and girls have taken silver below a male allowed to compete in the women’s category.

Trans-identifying males have competed in more than 14,301 female sport events, amateur and professional. “

But apparently, nothing to see here. Feminists should be looking at other issues because there is very little impact and it is ‘just a few’ male people in female single sex sports.

HECHEATED

A record of MALES who have robbed FEMALE athletes of success and opportunities in sport and the organizations who have helped them do so.

https://hecheated.org/

GailBlancheViola · 23/09/2026 14:42

iwishitwouldstartraining · 23/09/2026 09:08

Why not? Women who identify as trans play on women's football teams. If men who identify as trans are being prevented from playing on men's football teams, I am sure that most posters on this board would support any campaign you started against this unlawful discrimination.

Ah but you have to remember that being trans inclusive doesn't mean including trans identifying females in female single sex sports, etc. Trans inclusive only means including trans identifying males in every female single sex concern, I am sure you are suprised by that (not). As ever,it is ALL about the men at the expense of women.

MarieDeGournay · 23/09/2026 15:13

The transgender player Giulia Valentino, photographed in a women's Gaelic football match in 2022 - Giulia's the one on the right, BTW - said in press interviews:
'I’d like to be remembered for leaving a legacy of inclusion for other trans players.”
Trans Gaelic footballer Giulia Valentino: ‘I’d like to leave a legacy of inclusion’ – The Irish Times
Well, always happy to oblige, Giulia! I post this photo in discussions about transwomen in women's sports, making sure that your legacy of inclusion is not forgotten...

a footnote about this photo :The Guardian stopped publishing it, I wonder why?
For opponents of such inclusion, the photograph of Valentino closing in on an opponent appeared to tell its own story: a bigger, stronger athlete with an unfair physical advantage from having undergone male puberty.
The Guardian [where this article was originally published] agreed not to publish this or any photograph that identified Valentino, who has been harassed.
-[from the same Irish Times article ]

'I've been disowned and shamed for saying women footballers must be boen with ovaries'  Oliver Brown in The Telegraph
moto748e · 23/09/2026 15:17

That pic never gets old.