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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I hope you will be proud of me..

251 replies

namechange62 · 30/08/2026 18:02

I'm not very educated, married to a good man, live a quiet life in a small village in the south west, have good relationships with males in my family who are good men. (Grand/Father, uncles, sons, son in law) and have strong women in my life (mother, daughter daughter's in law, nieces etc).
Just setting the scene really..

Well it all kicked off this afternoon at my house. (When I say kicked off I mean a quick argument lasting about half an hour! Not EastEnders worthy..)

I have to say I had a few. Not many because I don't really drink but ..

Somehow it was bought up about Gen Z being offended about something that my kids/and partners grew up with (ages 29-36…). A sketch in Little Britain. Somehow the conversation turned to trans stuff and eventually turned to transwomen.

Anyway I bought up the case of transwomen playing in the (WNBA? ) basketball and how some men are pretending to be women to join. Showing solidarity with the woman having to play with 6ft 10in transwomen? I've probably got details wrong but hopefully you can understand?

Well it got heated.
SIL Sort of agreed but said it's rare. I said even one transwomen taking a female space is one too many. I talked about transwomen in female toilets. How do we know who the 'safe' ones are. It got on to male violence v female violence.

My Dil who works with victims of DV agreed and was quoting statistics about calls to DV helplines rising during the world cup.

My son got very heated and did the usual whataboutery. But what about women who do the same?! Trans men in male sports? Transmen who use mens toilets/changing rooms.

I said it's very rare but he continued to get riled when I started spouting some stuff I'd read on MN.
Mediocre men who fail in mens teams taking places from women, men invading women's spaces for fetish reasons. I said do you ever enter the toilets thinking whether you are safe? (Surprise that he didn't even know what I meant? And surprised when I told him I did!). His GF then agreed with me. I said you have no skin in this game (males taking female places in sport, jobs and prizes) and never will!
He got heated and continued with the whataboutery but I held my ground.

Told him about the transwomen who invade female changing rooms (I encountered one myself) and how would he feel if his grandma had to deal with a semi naked man who was getting kicks by humiliatingly women.

SiL got it and eventually DS got it too. These are normal hardworking men.
Anyway we left it at that but both of them said they didn't know half of what I'd said.

I read a lot on this thread on MN and want to say thank you for educating me. I can't help many people to understand but I think I got 2 men today to think a bit more about it.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 04/09/2026 07:22

I used to explain it thus;

Sex is knowing you have a baby boy or girl.

Gender is feeling slightly uncomfortable that your son is desperate to do ballet.

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 07:46

Shedmistress · 04/09/2026 07:22

I used to explain it thus;

Sex is knowing you have a baby boy or girl.

Gender is feeling slightly uncomfortable that your son is desperate to do ballet.

I assume men are more likely to have a ‘problem’ if their son wants to become a ballet dancer. (As a mother, I would think there is a shortage of male ballet dancers worldwide so they would always find work!)

Shedmistress · 04/09/2026 07:54

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 07:46

I assume men are more likely to have a ‘problem’ if their son wants to become a ballet dancer. (As a mother, I would think there is a shortage of male ballet dancers worldwide so they would always find work!)

Is that really your first thought?

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 08:10

Shedmistress · 04/09/2026 07:54

Is that really your first thought?

Yes! I’ve known some men who didn’t want their sons to take ballet. They were fine with their daughters doing ballet.

What’s been your experience?

Shedmistress · 04/09/2026 10:53

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 08:10

Yes! I’ve known some men who didn’t want their sons to take ballet. They were fine with their daughters doing ballet.

What’s been your experience?

Experience in what?

They made a film about a boy wanting to do ballet because this is not 'the correct gendered' behaviour.

Most parents would 'worry/be concerned/raise an eyebrow/think possibly negatively/insert whatever you want here' about their sons wanting to do ballet not because of the jobs market, but because they are 'worried' their sons might be gay/might be thought to be gay/might be bullied. The jobs market is usually not the first thing on their minds.

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 11:14

@Shedmistress “The jobs market is usually not the first thing on their minds.”

This really was my first thought when I read your post! I would be happy if my son found a career he loved and stayed employable.

Lins77 · 04/09/2026 11:43

Billy Elliot was set in the 80s. I'm not saying there aren't still stigmas attached - but I wouldn't have turned a hair if my son had wanted to do ballet, and nor would anyone in my family.

I'd probably see it more as a hobby than a job ,but if he had the motivation and talent to make a career out of it, that would be a very positive thing.

ArabellaScott · 04/09/2026 11:54

I think Shedmistress' point is that a gender non conforming child isn't always easy, largely because any non conformity isn't easy. A parent worries about bloody everything how their child will find their way in the world, and knowing they may be more likely to face criticism or hostility can be just another thing we worry about. There are both good and bad elements to gender non conformity. Good might be that they are a rounded individual, or confident in their choices, or resistant to peer pressure. Bad might be that they may face prejudice, or censure.

ArabellaScott · 04/09/2026 11:56

And fwiw it's often easier for girls to act gnc than for boys. The stigma is very strong & deep for boys. It's seen as lowering themselves to lean towards/choose the 'feminine' coded gender choices. Conversely, girls are often admired for choosing to 'punch up' to male gendered norms.

Of course this is all rooted in sexism.

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 12:12

ArabellaScott · 04/09/2026 11:56

And fwiw it's often easier for girls to act gnc than for boys. The stigma is very strong & deep for boys. It's seen as lowering themselves to lean towards/choose the 'feminine' coded gender choices. Conversely, girls are often admired for choosing to 'punch up' to male gendered norms.

Of course this is all rooted in sexism.

It really is rooted in sexism!

Male ballet dancers possess immense physical strength, power and stamina that rival or exceed professional athletes in heavy contact sports, but often male ballet dancers are seen as feminine or effeminate.

ArabellaScott · 04/09/2026 12:29

I should add for completeness that of course many parents also harbour prejudices themselves. But from a feminist pov, I'd say gnc behaviour can still provoke mixed feelings for the reasons I gave above. There's also the possibility that a gnc child may provoke memories of a parent's own experiences as a child and maybe react out of those. Parenting can be more complicated in practise than in theory.

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 12:49

ArabellaScott · 04/09/2026 12:29

I should add for completeness that of course many parents also harbour prejudices themselves. But from a feminist pov, I'd say gnc behaviour can still provoke mixed feelings for the reasons I gave above. There's also the possibility that a gnc child may provoke memories of a parent's own experiences as a child and maybe react out of those. Parenting can be more complicated in practise than in theory.

Parents definitely hold prejudices. They often treat their sons and daughters differently from a very young age.

Like you said, parenting can be more complicated in practice than in theory!

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/09/2026 13:00

I'd like to see a modern Billy Elliot where a father from Islington is horrified when his son decides to become a coal miner. Where's the future in that? And why would a normal bloke want to be underground with all those men?

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 13:16

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/09/2026 13:00

I'd like to see a modern Billy Elliot where a father from Islington is horrified when his son decides to become a coal miner. Where's the future in that? And why would a normal bloke want to be underground with all those men?

If his son is doing an ‘honest day’s work’ he should be pleased!

(He might find it hard to find work ‘down’t pit’ as all the major commercial ones are closed.)

MrPrettyDamnCosmic · 04/09/2026 15:46

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/09/2026 13:00

I'd like to see a modern Billy Elliot where a father from Islington is horrified when his son decides to become a coal miner. Where's the future in that? And why would a normal bloke want to be underground with all those men?

q.v. Monty Python's Flying Circus' Working Class Playwright sketch

"Hampstead wasn't good enough for you, you had to go poncing off to Barnsley."

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQDeU6dHX-c

DialSquare · 04/09/2026 15:57

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/09/2026 13:00

I'd like to see a modern Billy Elliot where a father from Islington is horrified when his son decides to become a coal miner. Where's the future in that? And why would a normal bloke want to be underground with all those men?

As someone who was born Islington to a very working class family, I’m not sure this would work! Kensington might be a better borough for the experiment.

Ractify · 05/09/2026 11:10

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 01/09/2026 11:32

Trans women are women. They live, work, are sexually harassed and experience vulnerability to cis male violence exactly as did women do.

Trans women using public toilets - completely open spaces containing cubicles, which anyone can walk into - does not endanger us. Predatory cis men do.

Encouraging hate against a minority, and denying who they are, has never made us safe.

If chat forums like this had existed in the 1980s/90s, do you know who would have been the focus?

Gay men.

I grew up with that. How gay men should not be allowed to use public toilets because they were all fetishists who only used them for sex, to watch straight men or commit rape there. Because being gay wasn't real. Gay men were created by abuse, reading about being gay, and/or not being patented properly. Not being allowed to be masculine by mum's who wanted a girl instead. Being gay was called a lifestyle choice. Opinion colunmists argued there was no scientific basis for gay sexuality - it was all a choice and a perversion. Harmful to children. Sound familiar?

Transphobia is the recycled, vile homophobia which destroyed so many young gay lives. And a fair amount is recycled racism as well - notably the bits about inherently aggression.

While hypersexuality is a trope recycled from racism, homophobia - and porn.

Telling women that they'll be safe going into public toilets once trans women are banned, because cis men observe a fictional social contract not to enter, is both insulting and dangerous.

Most cis men don't go into the Ladies because there are no urinals, the queues are longer and they don't want to. Not because they are noble.

But the predatory cis men who have always gone in, can now claim to be trans guys if challenged.

They not only went in when they wanted (to hide in cubicles and wait for a woman to be alone) before, they now have an excuse if caught.

Well done the anti-trans movement. Forever parroting the myths of the far right which claim Strong Men are the answer.

Men attack us in public and nothing is done. They attack us on buses, in the street, in our homes, at work, in pubs - often in front of witnesses. The idea they'd go to all the effort of transitioning so as to use public toilets is laughable, and a male idea of what sexual violence actual is.

Most men have no real clue what it's like to live with the constant threat of sexual violence. Trans women do - because they're targeted by them as well.

Men like to imagine that women have sanctuaries and safe spaces (granted by them, because they're so noble) because they don't want to hear the brutal reality of how women live. We will see absolutely no progress until that is addressed.

Again. No, thank you. I absolutely reject your message, and the aggression and vitriol contained within it. End.

taxi4ballet · 05/09/2026 19:57

6ate9 · 04/09/2026 12:12

It really is rooted in sexism!

Male ballet dancers possess immense physical strength, power and stamina that rival or exceed professional athletes in heavy contact sports, but often male ballet dancers are seen as feminine or effeminate.

If anyone is in any doubt about this, they need to watch the documentary about the Royal Ballet Principal dancer Stephen McRae entitled 'Dancing back to the light', which follows the journey of the father of three back to fitness after a catastrophic injury.

NotAtMyAge · 05/09/2026 20:55

taxi4ballet · 05/09/2026 19:57

If anyone is in any doubt about this, they need to watch the documentary about the Royal Ballet Principal dancer Stephen McRae entitled 'Dancing back to the light', which follows the journey of the father of three back to fitness after a catastrophic injury.

For my birthday this year, DS and DD took me to the Royal Opera House to see the Royal Ballet perform La Fille Mal Gardee. Stephen McRae should have been the male lead for that performance and after seeing the documentary I was really looking forward to watching him dance, but sadly he was unwell and the understudy stepped in.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/09/2026 21:14

NotAtMyAge · 05/09/2026 20:55

For my birthday this year, DS and DD took me to the Royal Opera House to see the Royal Ballet perform La Fille Mal Gardee. Stephen McRae should have been the male lead for that performance and after seeing the documentary I was really looking forward to watching him dance, but sadly he was unwell and the understudy stepped in.

What a lovely gift. McRae snapped his achilles tendon didn't he? Coming back from that must be a challenge.
The strength & resilience of male ballet dancers is often underestimated.

OP posts:
namechange62 · 06/09/2026 09:43

Wow you've all made me more brave.. I've just added my opinion on this thread. I wouldn't have dared before.

OP posts:
namechange62 · 06/09/2026 09:51

And amazing that's it can be openly discussed on MN now. I remember when it couldn't be.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 06/09/2026 10:08

I now have a 20 year old, a 23 year old and a 32 year old - all male - who i'm over due a frank conversation with.

It will happen. They will understand not to be a sexist prick around me. They can believe what they like but its not to be disrespectful around me.

taxi4ballet · 06/09/2026 14:54

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/09/2026 21:14

What a lovely gift. McRae snapped his achilles tendon didn't he? Coming back from that must be a challenge.
The strength & resilience of male ballet dancers is often underestimated.

He did, and recovered from that and was back to dance, but then got injured again more recently. He's a lovely chap, DD and I were walking round Covent Garden once, and met him and his wife (also a ballet dancer) and their dc in the street outside the RoH (can't get used to calling it the RBO yet).

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