Services and spaces should be separated according to gender, not sex

I think people have been asking for some time for someone, anyone, to make that case cogently.

Hasn't happened yet, but I think we probably live in hope.

Most services and spaces don’t need to be separated at all.

I dont think anyone thinks there is a case or why a feminist forum would invite anyone to clog up the forum with a thread that is directly in opposition to a forum based on women's sex based rights.

Perhaps those who want to engage with people they know they disagree with could ask MNHQ to set up a forum called something like Trans Ideology?

I do not. And I certainly do not live in hope.

But, let's see what happens.

It would probably be useful to start with a definition of "gender" first. Baby steps.

Great, I too am looking for some clarity on why we should separate by gender, rather than just make all the current separate-sex spaces into mixed gender spaces.

How can you clog up a forum? Just hide the thread if it is not of interest.

Aren't there supposedly 57, or 62, or 553 genders? (Choose your figure, I've lost count). That's an awful lot of separate spaces.

How many genders are there? I've heard various different versions. Is there a consensus now?

Edited to add: @Eclipsing cross-posted! It's the obvious problem, isn't it?

8.3 billion, because that is the population of the planet and gender is just personality.

@BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp

Yes. What even is gender?

I've never heard a proposal so obviously retrograde, and so blatantly nonsensical.

The sorts of services, categories and facilities that are currently separated by sex are done so on the basis of biological differences and all that follows on from those differences.

'Gender' is ultimately a made-up and meaningless term with no material foundation.

Live in Hope. Die in Caergwrle.

Sorry. I'll see myself out.

I for one very much want female only healthcare services. We were promised so much in the last election and all that has happened is a load more reports have found female healthcare in this country is appalling from birth through to maternity and nursing care. As if we didn't know that before we voted for the imaginary health hubs where we would apparently be able to spend a few hours of a year on one day doing all the smears, mammograms, xrays, blood tests, DEXA tests and MH checks rather than having to use all of our holiday days.

For me, gender and sex mean the same thing. Gender is just another word for sex, and often easier to say if you’re feeling prudish! So I use them as synonyms. I feel that saying gender means something else (eg social, not biological) just adds fuel to the idea that we can change gender.

I have seen it tried - ‘genderising’ toilet documents that the government commissioned to work out the best designs for people with long term health conditions. Unfortunately most of the long term health conditions weren’t mentioned, but gender was discussed a lot:

Urinals
It should be noted that male crotch height, while likely to encompass a majority of urinal users, does not necessarily account for the height of trans and non-binary users, or people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery. There is no large-scale anthropometric study indicating the anthropometric dimensions of trans and non-binary groups, or the prevalence of use of urinals for these groups. It is not sufficient to recommend a lower standard urinal height to accommodate all people regardless of sex and gender, as a height that is too low is not optimal and presents barriers in use.

So urinals height is still dictated by male sex, not gender. In fact places do sometimes have two urinal heights to make it easier for boys.

Sanitary Bins
There is limited research on the prevalence of trans and non binary gender identity using sanitary products; however, some trans and non-binary people who do not identify as female will menstruate47,48.

Two references to discuss females need sanitary bins even if they don’t identify as females. Again, the conclusion is sanitary bin need is dictated by sex, this time female.

[In fact males with prostate problems need bins too for different sanitary products but they forgot this].

Pictograms
There is no standard pictogram for non-gendered toilet facilities in England. However, BS 8501 and BS ISO 7001 provides a standard pictogram for unisex toilet facilities…The standard pictogram is likely recognisable and understood by most people as indicating toilet facilities that can be used by all…[but] this pictogram may not be inclusive to non-binary people. Similarly, the term "unisex" on toilet signage may not be inclusive for all people.

Standard toilet pictograms are by sex.

Sexed toilets are for biological, health & safety needs. The above paragraphs show how ludicrous it sounds when trying to separate according to gender.

So, we stop dividing certain key services by something that is clear to all, that includes significant variation of relevance to the separation and that covers different needs and start dividing it by something fluid, impossible to identify from the outside and in which the different needs are jumbled together?

Ok…

I’d love to know this too

I am looking forward to the argument that also then presents the very necessary clearly stated boundary categories that are also immutable so that people know which gendered space is available to them.

Because you cannot have a space that limits entrance without clear and unambiguous criteria. And therefore gender has to be clearly defined and measurable and just as importantly, evidenced.

Maybe this male person’s video will provide some basis for discussion on ‘gender’.

x.com/malesperish/status/2093281435041812721/video/1?s=46

roseyposey and @Changeisstillpossible that's the million dollar question, isn't it? Some people claim to change gender, some change sex, and others shift from one (?) gender to another and back again.

And as @Helleofabore says you cannot have a space that limits entrance without clear and unambiguous criteria.

So, really, the entire proposal goes nowhere without clear definitions. Which we've never had on these threads. Ever.

How do we have a completely separate "woman-gendered" space, predicated on keeping out everyone who isn't "woman-gendered?" Who decides? What's the criteria?

I'd like to hear from some of those posters who regularly appear to berate us for failing to comprehend something so obviously simple that they can't even define.

How about this as an example, (from the Watershed Bristol)

• One block of two cubicle toilets. These are designated as mixed sex. Signage on the door indicates they are suitable for women and they are Trans+Inclusive.
• One cubicle toilet and urinals. These are designated as mixed sex. Signage on the door indicates they are for men and they are Trans+ Inclusive.

Now why are 'two cubicle toilets' (without urinals) labelled as suitable for women. What about the 'women' who still have penises? Wouldn't they perhaps prefer a urinal, rather than awkwardly aiming in the vacinity of a toilet bowl? They are probably going to have a longer queue here than if they used the urinals in the other block. But the other block is labelled men, so the service provider is adding to their dysphoria if they want the urinal option.

Why is the 'one cubicle toilet and urinals' option labelled as suitable for men? What about the 'men' who decided not to risk the almost inevitable disaster of phalloplasty and kept their female urinary system. They'll all be queueing for the one cubicle, when they could have had a shorter wait in the two cubicle option. But again, that option is labelled women and the service provider is forcing them to wait longer or feel dysphoric.

Why not have a block labelled urinals and a block labelled toilets and let anyone use whichever they want? How is organising by gender a better system, if it is not about validation and/or fetish?

That would not be acceptable to a great many people. Most women. Certainly women who have been assaulted sexually. Women of various religious affiliations (orthodox Jews, orthodox Christians, probably Evangelical Christians, Muslims) all of whom outnumber the number of trans identified men who this arrangement is really for.
And I have no idea anyway what 'mixed gender' is since gender is a social construct and apparently there are 52, 540 or whatever of them. Sex is the obvious way to segregate those spaces and things which need segregating e.g. toilets, changing rooms, rape and DV refuges, prisons, sports, Lesbian meet-ups, gay meet-ups, and groups set up to help or promote and support e.g. women, young men, girls or where women or men just want a same sex reading group, chess group, walking group etc.
You want mixed sex groups. A lot of people don't want mixed sex groups for particular things where sex really matters. There is also the problem that unisex or mixed sex eg toilets and changing rooms are the places where the highest number of sexual assaults take place.