Thoughts on this tweet?

With regards to calling men, women.

I have never understood why doing what someone asks, without thinking of the consequences, is considered ‘kind’?

Calling men, women is obviously false and creates all kinds of issues for actual women.

In this case ‘kindness’ needs to be balanced by sense, reason and respect for the truth.

When it has been calculated that one school boy in the female competition negatively impacts over one thousand female competitors just in a short period of time, I don’t understand anyone who supports male athletes in female sports even at grass roots level.

That doesn’t even then cover male athletes injuring female athletes even at grass roots level. I remember the horror I felt of reading the female footballer describe being tackled by one of the male football players on the Flying Fruit Bat team in Sydney that was so bad she can never play again. That is grass roots level sport and there is no defending it.

I think that it is also worth remembering that this is not just a world populated by adults making adult decisions with other adults about what spaces and words to give up.

@walkthedino Maybe try substituting 'girls' instead of women in your mind. Are you happy with trans-identified adult males using toilets and changing rooms that girls are also using, such as those in many High Street stores?
Would you be happy for a Primary school to insist that Year 1 pupils call their trans-identified male teacher Miss and refer to him with she/her pronouns? Do you not see how that might undermine a young child's natural ability to tell men from women and put them at risk as they get older?

The question you’re being asked though is why do you feel it so important to be kind to a man, without considering the impact of your actions on women?

Why does the kindness only go one way?

I just don't understand this.

Why do you think we have seperate sex sports in the first place?

If men can just enter any female sport then it destroys female sport.

So then we may as well just forget female sports.

So it disadvantages any female who wants to play sports and compete against other females.

And so they will set up their own sports again, from scratch, funded by themselves and the moment any man finds out about it, he can destroy it again in an instant.

Yes and being fair, a lot of us here started from a position of "oh it's just being kind/what harm can it do?"

but once it's pointed out that it's only ever women being asked to move up/be kind/be accommodating (where are the campaigns aimed at men to be more accepting of TW in men's spaces?) and you see the breathtaking sexism of it all, you can't unsee it

Exactly

Which is why ‘be kind’ as a moral framework, by itself, is not sufficient.

It is far too open to abuse and manipulation.

@walkthedino

If the determining factor is kindness…

What about toilets?
Which design do you think is most kind? Single sex or mixed sex?

Single sex can be cubicles and they are permitted to have door gaps but it has to be in a single sex environment. My research shows that they are healthier and safer, and the difference can even be life saving for anyone who has a medical emergency and collapses. I also know this personally, as I saved a young woman life because I could see she had collapsed and was on the floor inside her cubicle. I know that children and women are safer too in toilets where it’s not completely visually private and resistant to sound, for obvious reasons. I know this because I collate real life incidents that happen inside non-domestic toilets.

What you have got to ask yourself is what health and safety measures you willing to sacrifice so every non domestic toilet design becomes mixed sex, therefore private.

Which design is most kind?

This dino been walked enough. TTFN

I don’t think my own view is harmful
I just personally think that it doesn’t impact me to respect how someone would prefer to be called. To me (again, personally) using a persons preferred pronouns are the same as using a nickname etc

In English using the pronoun for a female is making a statement regarding the sex of the person. Nothing like using a nickname.

I also feel it is misunderstanding how language works to excuse yourself for doing it: "To me (again, personally)", because words either have shared meaning, or they mean nothing.

It is harmful to women when you use "she" for a man who rejects his own sex category. You debase women's sex category. I know you just want to be kind but your version of kindness diminishes women's rights: if any man who wishes it so, can be included under the banner "woman", then the word has lost it's meaning.

Names...meh. I'll call my "lesbian" neighbour by his chosen female name. I am not hateful but I will not say "she".

This.

It's fascinating that OP would (presumably) characterise your post as "cocaine-fuelled" extremism - while seeing as "dead moderate" an argument that removes any word at all from the 51% of the global population enslaved in Afghanistan, and whose husbands were permitted to rape them a few decades ago in the west (a form of ownership, again).

That, to me, is an absolutely extraordinary view.

I could easily describe it using the words the OP does your own, Rhino (but I'm not that rude).

That this idea has taken such hold that it's seen as "moderate", though, is exactly what reaffirms to me that I'm right to stand up for the rights of women to an unambiguous name of their own. It confirms me how much we still lack recognition and respect.

As other posters point out, the argument that we should redefine the word "woman" can only be made from a position of considerable privilege or naivety.

The OP and your subsequent comments are 'gatekeeping'. This is a serious crime in transland, arguably as bad as 'misgendering' - but who can tell; everything except adoring agreement's a crime.

The point is that you can't be 'kind' if you're setting conditions on when & where people can be treated as if they aren't the sex they are. That's gatekeeping, and gatekeeping is unkind.

Children who say they are trans aren't ill, the dogma insists. Despite not being ill, they need and deserve extensive, life-altering medical treatment. But they are definitely not mentally ill, even though they say they're suicidal unless they get this medical treatment for not being ill. They certainly don't need psychological treatment, how very dare you! You're gatekeeping their access to 'healthcare'.

Anyone who says they're trans is trans. That includes the full range of non-binary identities and everyone whose gender (or genderless) identity changes on a regular or irregular basis. They all need and deserve their identities to be accepted at all times, full access to everything they feel they should access, and all medical treatments they feel they need. By filtering out some gender identities, you are gatekeeping. Unkind.

If you don't want to look at a woman's penis, don't look at it. Are you trying to shame her or what? Maybe you're a fetishist. But also, she may want you to look. If you look, make sure you do it in an admiring, even awestruck manner. Be kind. Don't gatekeep genitals.

Likewise, we find all sorts of people unnerving. People probably find you unnerving. We don't keep people out just because we're uncomfortable around them. Reframe your trauma. Be kind.

... I can do this all day (but don't want to). I hope you can now understand that what you saw as moderate and reasonable is, in fact, exclusionary and not at all kind.

Oh, and don't be kind to female women. Them bitches cause trans suicides with their gatekeeping. Distance yourself from them or you'll be made to regret it.

Ok thanks for clarifying. Wu limited the points to Professional sport hence I was checking.

I thought that was a typo and OP meant shouldn't?

Agree - trans women should not be in female sports

Yes.

Fundamentally: in this ideology you can break the human race into two groups: men with declared gender identities (and women a bit, sometimes, when they're useful, and children, when useful, but it's really only about the men and what works as a service/tool for them)

And everybody else. Who is of a lower caste.

Once you have that in mind, all this makes sense.

One man's self expression over the actual bodily safety, risk of permanent injury and death to every woman who plays that sport with him while indulging his wished for illusion? Yes. Absolutely he entirely outweighs them.

One man's self expression and inner fulfilment (maybe emotional, sexual, both, involve the thrill of partial or actual assault) outweighs the equality, access to resources and services and inclusion of every woman. Some will say they're personally not affected and yippee for them, it's nice to be privileged, isn't it? The women who are excluded, affected, harmed, left without services or with life long injuries? Whatever.

Many children permanently sterilised, regretting, left with lifelong severe side effects and medical troubles, a few of whom will die? Well they don't matter do they, the few kids who are 'actually trans' (judged by declaring they are happy - but check your facts and be prepared often the narrative varies wildly between 'this is fab, I love my transition' and explanation of medical horrors, misery, extreme mental health issues and regret) are ok.

You have to be mad to play along with this and think it's 'kind'.

It's many other things, but 'kind' is not one of them. It's also ridiculous to pretend this is not at its root a fixed belief in the value of males above females. If this was a woman-only thing, no one would give a damn about anyone's pronouns.

Calling a man his she/her or miss/mrs/ms isnt kind, its not like a nickname its removing a layer of safeguarding.

Referring to Wu as she in front of children will confused them into believing men are women. Your kindness may lead children not to raise the alarm when any man enters female space.

We're expected to see a difference between the Wu and Izzards and any other men, and 'teach' this to children in our actions.

But we dont know. If we did, the rules would be clear, and safeguarding part of it. We wouldn't have to tell each other to be kind.

I know. But the thing is that some people ignore grass roots sports, as does Wu. So I felt it was worth checking that it was all levels.

The framing of trans child as a thing is a problem. There are children who develop gender dysphoria from a young age. Calling them trans isn’t helpful. Especially if you agree children are over medicalised.

I think I agree (broadly) with all the points OP. I've seen Brianna on Facebook and thought I mostly agreed with their posts. They all seem quite sensible to me.

Just asking if you have read the entire thread? Happy to leave you alone with your thoughts if you have and you still agree with Brianna Wu. (I notice that you aren't using a female pronoun for him.)

@DisappearingGirl do you think men who've had cosmetic surgery should get access to women's facilities?

I made reference to it earlier but thought it would be worth sharing, in full, this interaction between Brianna Wu and British journalist Sonia Sodha. Wu is not moderate and the aggressive male-pattern behaviour comes straight out as soon as someone says no to him.