Are you tired of winning?

The flaw in the TRA logic is to assume that the two groups are mutually exclusive.

TRAs will never get anywhere this argument while they refuse to accept that an effeminate child who has lived largely like a girl since a toddler is not the same as an autistic teenager who decides they are trans as they approach puberty is not the same as a 40 year old man who is turned on by thinking he's a woman.

And that sharing facilities with a smaller than average male who's been on cross sex hormones all his adult life and had his genitals amputated is not the same as sharing facilities with a brick shithouse of an intact ex men's team rugby player wearing a skirt.

As a general point, anyone admiring or supporting breaking the law may want to consider being careful what they wish for. People wising to break other laws will be watching and taking note, don't expect the tigers not to eat your face off when it suits them.

I would also add sexual harassment to the list of the illegals.

Talking of winning. I wonder whether just a couple of years ago the BBC News would have led with JKR’s words when talking about the tributes to Dolly Parton, as they did last night.

Uhuh.

Just popped in to a women's rights forum to remind women that their legal rights supposedly don't work, (yay), and they are so unimportant and useless and not being any kind of barrier to men who don't respect women and want to use them regardless of how it affects women -

and all so unimportant and useless that the OP had to come especially to a women's rights forum and make a post especially to remind them of all this (presumably in case they hadn't noticed or remembered it by themselves). While not really disguising their own obvious ishoos with women.

1/10.

Yes. Poor old Robin would have been better titling his thread
"When will I stop whining?"

Bet quite a few are. Not by going against the guidance, but there are laws on sexual harassment and voyeurism and we know that some trans identified men use women's toilets and changing rooms for these purposes.

I guess this post proves why single sex spaces are essential for women.

Women have fought for certain spaces that are exclusively female because the level of threat to them was so severe that it affected their ability to participate in society if they didn't have them.

Transwomen have routinely ignored that boundary.

The Government has strongly reiterated to transwomen that this boundary is part of women's rights for them to participate in society safely.

Transwomen still continue to ignore the boundary.

This is the definition of red-flag behaviour.

It doesn't actually affect me personally at all to share my facilities with an effeminate small man who never strips off in front of me. (I know it does other women and their views should be respected but that isn't my point at the moment).

It does bother me if he strips off in front of me, and once he's been given a green light to be in my space I can't stop him doing that.

And it sure as hell bothers me to have an autogynophile of average male size in my space and once the effeminate small man has a green light I can't keep him out either.

And this is another issue that the trans activists will never address.

Even an effiminate small man is significantly stronger than you and is statistically much more likely to commit violence, film you or act in a lewd way towards you than a woman.

I don't, for myself, care. I know other women do, and that has to be respected. I don't believe the physical threat to me is from slight effeminate men who pass or very nearly pass as women. (And frankly you have no idea whether he would be stronger than me or not, there are many women who are stronger than some men, and even more trained to defend themselves who could put a man on the floor or in hospital.)

The problem is that by letting him in, there is no other male who can be kept out.

I honestly think that it would be a lot easier to win this argument at a policy level if we stuck to that argument instead of the "all men are a threat" argument.

It's extraordinarily difficult to defend a brick shithouse of a man in a skirt using female changing rooms, which is why the trans lobby will never address it.

And he wouldn't need to wear a skirt.

If we are ignoring sex, a woman doesn't have to present in a particular way to use a toilet, so why should anyone else?

You know what I meant and that it was a figure of speech.

I agree with Imdunfer's basic point: keeping men of any kind out of women's spaces is a matter of principle, not case-by-case, 'he's tiny and lovely, he's afraid the men will beat him up in the gents, he has always used the ladies, nobody minds, he wouldn't hurt a fly', because each one of these 'inoffensive, non-threatening' men is a breach of the principle that single sex facilities are divided by biological sex not gender ID, full stop.

TRAs can make the argument that TWs are not on average a threat to the physical safety of women, but it is 100% undeniable that any TW in a women's toilet negates the single-sex nature of the facility.

As Imdunfer says:
The problem is that by letting him in, there is no other male who can be kept out.

I was agreeing with your wider point.

Fully agree about the principle of no men in women's spaces.

Tbh, I find the "I don't care" argument a bit limited and so often derails a thread.. I'm aware that the 12 year old me would have cared. As would the post partum me, the breastfeeding me, the post op feeling weak and feeble me and maybe in the future, the elderly frail and feeble me - all would care.

Which is why I don't feel the need to tell other women that I don't care. It's irrelevant to the argument.

@FlakyRobin- not sure if you are still reading this now you’ve wound people up, but if you are, I’m one of those people who don’t hate trans people, and do understand that male spaces aren’t safe for transwomen, but it doesn’t follow that the solution is to make female spaces mixed sex. All that does is make people who are female less safe.

toilets and changing rooms seem to be the flash point for trans rights activists, so I’d say the current standard public provision of one large room designed for multiple people to use at the same time (with cubicles around the toilets/changing space that don’t fully enclose that space) doesn’t work for people who are male.

Focussing on trans-women doesn’t work either because these spaces aren’t safe for all men who for some reason are more vulnerable to male violence (effeminate men, older, weaker men, men who are the “wrong” ethnicity for violent men etc). Communal public spaces work for women when it is purely female only but never really work for people who are male.

I would support a campaign to change male spaces to make them safer for all vulnerable males, but how that’s designed and how that’s campaigned for is something men need to lead, not leaving it to women to sort for them. The solution is not “just shove the vulnerable males into female spaces”. For about 10 years this has been the solution and it was shit for women. Men need to sort out their own problems, even if it’s expensive and time consuming.

I am sick of seeing celebrities men who are trans allies saying effectively “women need to let trans-women into their spaces to keep TW safe” not ever “we men need to fix male spaces so TW are safe.”

@FancyBiscuitsLevel

@ FlakyRobin - not sure if you are still reading this now you’ve wound people up, but if you are, I’m one of those people who don’t hate trans people, and do understand that male spaces aren’t safe for transwomen, but it doesn’t follow that the solution is to make female spaces mixed sex. All that does is make people who are female less safe.

I am intrigued to know what the evidence is that male spaces aren't safe for 'trans women'?

A 'trans woman' is a man. So you are saying that male spaces are not safe for some men... how? why? when? where is the evidence?

There is plenty of evidence that men are a threat in women's spaces (so agree that female spaces should not become mixed sex) - but I am yet to see evidence that male spaces are not safe for any men...

It seems to have become a rallying war cry of the 'trans' movement for several reasons

• they can claim to personally not feel safe in a "you can't deny my lived experience" way - believing therefore that there can be no argument, everyone has to accept their claim.
• it becomes an excuse to not use the men's spaces - and in their failed and twisted logic a reason to use women's spaces - despite the herd of elephants in the room... that is ignored... that if the gents are not safe for them, then their being in a woman's space as a male is de facto reducing safety for women.

I am yet to see any evidence that suggests that a man of any type (even a 'trans woman' - i.e. a man pretending to be a woman) is unsafe in the gents - I am not quite sure what people think goes on - but people come in, pee / otherwise occupy themselves, wash their hands (mainly) and then leave - they don't chat, they don't engage, they tend not to look at each other, no-one is interested! And if someone is going to be worried about how they look - there are cubicles for anonymity.

I would support a campaign to change male spaces to make them safer for all vulnerable males, but how that’s designed and how that’s campaigned for is something men need to lead, not leaving it to women to sort for them. The solution is not “just shove the vulnerable males into female spaces”. For about 10 years this has been the solution and it was shit for women. Men need to sort out their own problems, even if it’s expensive and time consuming.

That is all well and good - but if there is no evidence of there being an issue, let us not waste time... the 'trans' community has self-labelled as vulnerable, and granted there are some for whom mental health and other issues may well make them vulnerable, but equally there is a sector who are playing a long-term game which shows no vulnerability at all - and these are the most likely to demand access to women's spaces.

There are no issues to resolve - men have their own spaces and must be told to get back in them - an aggressive male with a beard in a skirt and pearls (for all the sterotypes!) who is insisting that they are allowed in the ladies loos, "because they are a woman..." is not exactly demonstrating a vulnerability that is going to cause them any issues in using the loos designed for their sex.

I am sick of seeing celebrities men who are trans allies saying effectively “women need to let trans-women into their spaces to keep TW safe” not ever “we men need to fix male spaces so TW are safe.”

Agree with you - but we mustn't get distracted by the claim of vulnerability or needing safe-spaces - these are deliberate distractions to justify a desire to be in women's spaces - a desire which does not come from a place of vulnerability or risk, but from more nefarious intents - so let's not give credence to false claims...

until someone is able to show the statistical evidence that a 'trans woman' is more vulnerable in the gents, but less vulnerable elsewhere, we need to challenge in real life, challenge the concepts being promoted, demand evidence.

and even then (as you say) the answer would not be in women's spaces - however, fortunately the answer to where a 'trans woman' can pee is simple...

men use men's spaces.

There’s no evidence that male toilets are unsafe for transwomen. After I asked @FlakyRobin to find me some, he hasn’t returned.

Even Robin doesn't accept that male spaces are unsafe for all transwomen. They claim it is only the few who pass who would be unsafe. Although they also think that any transwoman who used male spaces is 'self-hating'. So essentially the overwhelming majority of transwomen are perfectly safe in male spaces, but shouldn't use them anyway.

Yes I'm sorry I realised that a bit late.