Are you tired of winning?

I don't know how many boys may be subjected to inappropriate remarks or even assault in a Gents, but I suspect the danger of attack by men in male public lavatories is less for an adult TIM than it is for an adult gay man or an adult disabled one.

Men would be likely to perceive a non-passing trans woman as a weirdo and therefore potentially dangerous, and thus not attack him; unlike an effeminate gay (they know about those) or someone disabled (they know about those) he would be an unknown quantity rather than an obvious target.

And the chances are yeraverage man would perceive that extremely rare individual, the TIM who passes as female at least to men, as equally weird for using a men's lavatory, and possibly predatory or in some way a danger, and give him a wide birth too.

Nobody I knew in the 1960s and 1970s who cross-dressed was worried about using the men's lavatories (they wouldn't have dreamed of using the women's: they were not cads nor bounders nor sexual predators) when he was in drag; I would certainly have been told all about it if one of them was!

sadly you are right - I try to look for the best in people - and then logic keeps coming back to remind us that actually there are some genuinely nasty / evil people out there...

Well, this will blow his mind then.

Here's a picture of me in the far right vault with all the money I get from the far right (apparently I'm supposed to distribute it to you lot, but I'll just hold on to it for safe keeping).

I'll admit I may have diverted some people's share into artwork and gold statues.

Thought you might be amused that your comment was featured on Reddit by an idiot who takes everything literally

https://archive.ph/yxGDt

Lack of honesty I think. Or maybe misplaced martyrdom. They know they do care, or at least have some degree of discomfort, but they think trans people matter more so they deny they even feel it rather than risk opening up a crack in the artifice that trans women are all soft gentle sisters.

To be fair they probably are thinking of mixed facilities in the night time economy - but at specific clubs and bars with their friends where they (rightly or wrongly) feel safe.

I did lots of things when I was younger that in hindsight weren't wise, but at the time I just thought I was more evolved.

In the very best case scenario.

Alternatively, they know exactly how women feel, and that is the reason they are keen to breach those boundaries.

I'm sorry you see my words as an "attack" and positioning you as an "enemy". That is not what I said or my intention.
I'm just pointing out that women who say "they don't care" may well care at different stages in their lives for a variety of reasons - that's a legitimate perspective and it seems a shame - given that we agree on the core issue - for you to overreact in this way.

Try putting those same women into a mixed facility in the night time economy - in a venue with which they are unfamiliar, and in which they find themselves alone with several unknown men. Let's see how comfortable they feel then.

Or perhaps when they are older, or have children, or are out in a busy shopping centre and have to use a large toilet block with shared access for all of the cubicles. I simply don't believe it.

These are often the same women who proclaim they are 'intersectionalist' feminists - and who spend a lot of time talking about 'the patriarchy' and male violence.

It is more down to a spectatcular lack of honesty, in my view. Or else a wilful limitation of personal imagination.

I think you're right about the people involved and all we disagree about is how many would be described as "lots".

It would seem that the trans lobby never have any difficulty finding women in thst group, anyway.

I really don't believe there are lots of women who do not feel uncomfortable or compromised by a strange male being unexpectedly in a female only facility. The women who say they "don't care" have either yet to encounter such a situation for themselves, or else they are thinking of their friendship circle only - if they are thinking at all. They are saying they "don't care" because it is politically correct to do so.

That is indeed a conundrum.

You shouldn't really need first hand experience of these things to grasp the necessity of a single sex space

All you need is empathy and concern for others...

one of the frustrations about this whole are of conversation for me as a man is that this should not need to be a man v woman discussion - if you care for other people then you think about their needs and it is obvious to anyone with a brain (male or female) that single sex spaces have a long list of reasons as to why they are needed...

ultimately the men who want access are simply demonstrating their inability to care for anyone else other than themselves...

Women who don't care who is in the next cubicle are confused when other women do care, and sympathetic to men who care.

It doesnt make sense. Why arent they dismissive of the men who dont want to pee next to other men?

yes. It is very irritating when some young women don't get it. One has to assume it's because, well, okay let's call it lived experience, hasn't yet shown them the issue.

As Mrs O says above, peoples attitude can change, depending on circumstance. It often does.

Breastfeeding, period flooding, miscarrying, weakened by circumstance, and being elderly and unsure.

You shouldn't really need first hand experience of these things to grasp the necessity of a single sex space

Not so long ago I got into a debate with one of the "I don't care! No women should care!" types. She seemed genuinely not to understand at all why any girl or woman might not feel ok about sharing toilets with males. I gave her a list of reasons why other women and girls may object, including the dignity issue of not wanting to rinse a mentsrual cup/ clean menstrual blood off hands in a bathroom full of men. She told me she would object to seeing that. Perfectly happy for men to be in the women's toilets: upset by the sight of menstrual blood in the women's toilets.

I try really hard to be patient with young women but that one left me feeling contempt of a kind I can't sufficiently put into words.

“Am I tired of winning?” Nope.
Tired of saying no to mediocre men, definitely.

"I don't want to have a huge threatening male in my changing room and I can't keep him out if you give his tiny female looking friends permission to be there" is a slam dunk argument that the trans people won't engage in because they know it's indefensible.

The problem is, there are ways round this argument.

In a way, the GRA does this. It gives some men government approval to be treated as women in certain situations. It was used for years to suggest that there was safeguarding in place.

We know thats not true, but what if it changed to only be given to passing men, then your argument let's us down.

Its best to be truthful from the start - we need female only spaces, and its impossible to change sex. Otherwise we are creating problems for ourselves in the future.

I remember when my son first started going into men's toilets on his own. I was really worried a man would do something inappropriate. I don't know if there are any figures for sexual assault on boys in mens toilets. I would be relieved if it didn't happen.

I think it's very important to realise that there are a significant number of women who don't care and that they split into two groups.

Those who think that because they don't care no other woman should care. These woman are frequently used in the trans activist fight.

Those who realise that they should care on behalf of all the other women who do care.

The first lot are our enemies in this issue.

The second lot are friends although you have chosen to attack me as an enemy for stating a relevant point. Nice.

The point is that we need to pick our battles in this to be the ones which are easily won.

"Keep that female looking person out of my female spaces" is a difficult argument to get everyone to agree with.

"I don't want to have a huge threatening male in my changing room and I can't keep him out if you give his tiny female looking friends permission to be there" is a slam dunk argument that the trans people won't engage in because they know it's indefensible.

Yes I'm sorry I realised that a bit late.

Even Robin doesn't accept that male spaces are unsafe for all transwomen. They claim it is only the few who pass who would be unsafe. Although they also think that any transwoman who used male spaces is 'self-hating'. So essentially the overwhelming majority of transwomen are perfectly safe in male spaces, but shouldn't use them anyway.

There’s no evidence that male toilets are unsafe for transwomen. After I asked @FlakyRobin to find me some, he hasn’t returned.

@FancyBiscuitsLevel

@ FlakyRobin - not sure if you are still reading this now you’ve wound people up, but if you are, I’m one of those people who don’t hate trans people, and do understand that male spaces aren’t safe for transwomen, but it doesn’t follow that the solution is to make female spaces mixed sex. All that does is make people who are female less safe.

I am intrigued to know what the evidence is that male spaces aren't safe for 'trans women'?

A 'trans woman' is a man. So you are saying that male spaces are not safe for some men... how? why? when? where is the evidence?

There is plenty of evidence that men are a threat in women's spaces (so agree that female spaces should not become mixed sex) - but I am yet to see evidence that male spaces are not safe for any men...

It seems to have become a rallying war cry of the 'trans' movement for several reasons

• they can claim to personally not feel safe in a "you can't deny my lived experience" way - believing therefore that there can be no argument, everyone has to accept their claim.
• it becomes an excuse to not use the men's spaces - and in their failed and twisted logic a reason to use women's spaces - despite the herd of elephants in the room... that is ignored... that if the gents are not safe for them, then their being in a woman's space as a male is de facto reducing safety for women.

I am yet to see any evidence that suggests that a man of any type (even a 'trans woman' - i.e. a man pretending to be a woman) is unsafe in the gents - I am not quite sure what people think goes on - but people come in, pee / otherwise occupy themselves, wash their hands (mainly) and then leave - they don't chat, they don't engage, they tend not to look at each other, no-one is interested! And if someone is going to be worried about how they look - there are cubicles for anonymity.

I would support a campaign to change male spaces to make them safer for all vulnerable males, but how that’s designed and how that’s campaigned for is something men need to lead, not leaving it to women to sort for them. The solution is not “just shove the vulnerable males into female spaces”. For about 10 years this has been the solution and it was shit for women. Men need to sort out their own problems, even if it’s expensive and time consuming.

That is all well and good - but if there is no evidence of there being an issue, let us not waste time... the 'trans' community has self-labelled as vulnerable, and granted there are some for whom mental health and other issues may well make them vulnerable, but equally there is a sector who are playing a long-term game which shows no vulnerability at all - and these are the most likely to demand access to women's spaces.

There are no issues to resolve - men have their own spaces and must be told to get back in them - an aggressive male with a beard in a skirt and pearls (for all the sterotypes!) who is insisting that they are allowed in the ladies loos, "because they are a woman..." is not exactly demonstrating a vulnerability that is going to cause them any issues in using the loos designed for their sex.

I am sick of seeing celebrities men who are trans allies saying effectively “women need to let trans-women into their spaces to keep TW safe” not ever “we men need to fix male spaces so TW are safe.”

Agree with you - but we mustn't get distracted by the claim of vulnerability or needing safe-spaces - these are deliberate distractions to justify a desire to be in women's spaces - a desire which does not come from a place of vulnerability or risk, but from more nefarious intents - so let's not give credence to false claims...

until someone is able to show the statistical evidence that a 'trans woman' is more vulnerable in the gents, but less vulnerable elsewhere, we need to challenge in real life, challenge the concepts being promoted, demand evidence.

and even then (as you say) the answer would not be in women's spaces - however, fortunately the answer to where a 'trans woman' can pee is simple...

men use men's spaces.