Are you tired of winning?

My view is that it will be easier to win this battle if we can place a picture of a brick shithouse wearing makeup and a skirt standing next to a petite woman in a female only space firmly in the minds of the people who are refusing to implement the law and in the minds of the people who will be lobbied to change it.

I don't think that would be helpful. It would just be seen as inflammatory and people would ignore it because it doesn't reflect their experience.

It also wouldn't represent the practical effect of any proposed changes to the law, which would just be to make all toilets mixed sex or unisex. The difference between an inclusive toilet and a non inclusive toilet is that you cannot object to anyone using an inclusive toilet, so it doesn't matter how anyone identifies.

Yes, we've all been to 'alternative' venues, and to gay bars and clubs.

I also think that some picture an integral, single occupancy room which anyone can use, that is typical of smaller venues.

Why do you think I need telling this?

Since you have restated it after quoting me, I will restate what I said.

I believe it is important to acknowledge that not all men are stronger than all women otherwise we hand ammunition to shoot us down to our opponents.

Individual examples are not irrelevant when they help you win your fight.

My view is that it will be easier to win this battle if we can place a picture of a brick shithouse wearing makeup and a skirt standing next to a petite woman in a female only space firmly in the minds of the people who are refusing to implement the law and in the minds of the people who will be lobbied to change it.

I think that for some women the distinction is more about class than size and masculinity. These men are not a threat because they are in my tribe. Those men are a threat, but I can avoid them. They just don't always recognise that they are making that distinction and that it is based on privilege.

Fully transitioned men (as a group) are stronger than females (as a group). This isn’t controversial. Individuals are irrelevant. Laws and regulations are made on the basis of broad brush generalisations all the time.

Not all men are stronger than all women. Combative martial arts trained women could outfight most men. I think we need to be very careful when making statements like these, it is too easy to give the other side reasons to call us "hysterical".

Please don't preach at the messenger. You do not need to explain make strength to me.

I'm just trying explain that I think our best chance of winning this fight is to focus on the big physically masculine men and point out that legally you cannot keep them out if you make an exception for people who believe they pass as women (as opposed to just believing that they are women).

Being right in this fight is not the point. Winning is the point.

@Holdinguphalfthesky that video is on YouTube - Always+ Run like a girl.

I think girls are brought up to see boys and men as being in need of sympathy, support, and general looking-after. There’s also the undertone of internalised (and externalised) misogyny in society.

Which is why so many women end up in situations where they’re in a relationship and doing all the work while their male “partner” swoons on the sofa clutching a PlayStation controller after putting in a few hours at a job. And why menstrual blood is “eww” and men peeing all over shared seats is “tsk, I’ll just clean this up with toilet paper, but the poor dears are clearly better off sharing with us”.

I used to have a video I used for teaching where kids were asked to demonstrate themselves running normally, and then running “like a girl”. “Like a girl” is still a thing to mock and avoid, for both boys and girls.

He’s still looking 👀

I can confirm this is what happened to me. I didn’t know that supporting trans-rights included males in female single sex spaces.

I then had 3 experiences of males in females single sex spaces and there was nothing I could do about it, no one who would listen and a lot to lose.

Look at how the way JK Rowling has been publically treated is tolerated. She has the majority view. Even cultures that include trans people still make divisions based on the sex i.e Thai Ladyboys still have to be excused from the draft and the Samoan sports minister publically questioned Laurel Hubbard inclusion in the Pacific Games in the female category

We do know that fully transitioned men are still significantly stronger than females. The most widely reported figure is male strength loss is approximately 9-11% which is out of the range of females.

We also know that transwomen commit violent acts at the same rate as other men not women.

This means the inclusion of any man-
transwomen included in a female single sex space will increase the risk of sexual violence and assault towards women.

What I take from that is men thinking they've wandered into the ladies by mistake means they think they're in the wrong place.
Men want their single sex spaces too, I assume once they'd processed the fact that the person putting on makeup was a bloke, they were happy to continue with their business.

I think many women say they don't care about transwomen in single sex spaces because it just doesn't affect them so they never have to think about it. Like they may literally think about this issue only once a year (if that). Us on here who discuss this issue daily/weekly are not representative of the average woman and how much they prioritise this particular issue.

Of course, if the average woman were to regularly see a man in their bathroom, I suspect they would very quickly upgrade their opinion from "don't care" to "hell no"

I think it may also have been responsible for the rather splendid question "What could be more sensuous than soaping the female?" Sexist as all hell get out, but often accidentally funny, that book, and doing its best in a somewhat hostile climate.

Or they assume that THEY have inadvertently wandered into the ladies.
There's a brilliant reel I saw on FB (wish I could find it again) of a TIM at the mirror in the men's putting his makeup on and reassuring every bloke who comes in and hesitates that they're in the right place. He seems to be having a right good time too. Finding it completely hilarious.

But yeah, it's just SOOOO dangerous in the men's.

The standout memory of that book for me was the incredible amount of beard.

Women who are 'fine with it' are welcome to crack on in the mixed sex/gender neutral spaces to their hearts' content. Their provision is right there.

What they never are willing to explain is exactly why they wish to force non consenting women into having no alternative but to submit to male needs over their own - regardless of what those needs might be - why they see all of those women and all of those needs as subordinate to a man's and not something women should be allowed to have met, and why they feel those women should be punished by exclusion from resources and services if they are not able to submit in this... rather binary sex based, hierarchical way.

Even without the sexism involved, I could wonder about the pathology and issues of someone who actually imagines doing that to others. And why the simple option of 'space for women who need single sex spaces' and 'women who are happy to use mixed sex provisions' can't just exist side by side.

And of course these women aren't giving any real weight to the fact that any woman at any time is only ever a day away from realising, personally, why single sex spaces are necessary for some women, and being utterly dependent on them herself.

It's impossible to know how many women are truly happy to have some men use women's space. Few seem to want to abandon single sex altogether and it amounts to the same thing.

Its often taboo to say men aren't welcome because they are male. Especially when single sex spaces are renamed safe spaces. And however hard it is for some to say no to men, its even harder to question their vulnerability and their need to be separated from other men.

Women politicians seem to be the biggest supporters of men in women's spaces, but, given they can only speak in slogans, I doubt they know what they are talking about.

This is my feeling too

encountering a man who is obviously pushing boundaries by being where he should not is quite threatening in my experience

I suspect women who think they would be fine with it just haven’t encountered this situation

Oh dear. Maybe I shouldn't have included a screenshot of that Reddit archive. I guess I'll see if my post gets approved later.

In my teens I read a book called (I think) The Joy of Sex, which had a section listing common fetishes. Such as glass, and mirrors, and feathers, and so on; but not leather, which it seemed was thought to be entirely usual and not a fetish at all.

I think it can be very hard to grasp just how weird some fetishes can be, tbh.

Personality disorder is also very hard to wrap your head round for most people.

Oh, do get over yourself.

What an immensely skillful apology Mrs OW 🤣

"I'm sorry you overreacted to what I wrote"

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻