Did we know Mel Gibson was gender critical?

They misjudged that one I think, they are back to chuntering on about independence all day and all night again, it is heartbreaking to watch, like watching old news from the early 80"s on repeat.

You are because you are suggesting that they want men to attend woman's spaces when they actually want trans women to attend male spaces. They dont want people like my husband showing up. Your point is as strong if you just say trans women instead of men. We understand that you don't mean biological women when you say trans women if we are smart enough to be conversing on the subject.

You are making no sense. It doesn’t matter if trans activists see some difference in “trans women” men and other men being called lesbians. It’s still what they believe, that men can be lesbians. That they see men as women and those women (that are actually men) are lesbians is the problem.

So why do you keep saying they let men in, when they let trans women in because they don't see them as men? It makes it look like you don't understand the conversation enough to meaningfully participate.

What are you talking about “let men in”? I understand the conversation perfectly. You seem to think that because gender ideology sees trans women as women, they’re not homophobic for thinking those people can be lesbians.

Fact: it is an inherent part of gender ideology that you must accept men who say they are women as women.

Fact: if you accept the above fact, you must accept that those women, if they are attracted to women, are lesbians.

Fact: if you think this is nonsense and homophobic, you clearly don’t believe an inherent part of gender ideology.

Ive seen people pretty much say that some people just like a natal dick or vagina on a partner who also embraces a masculine or feminine persona. That pretty much leaves you with someone who is what they'd call a cis male or female.

So you haven’t seen it expressed clearly and accepted that sexual attraction is based on sex, biological sex, and that it is biological sex that determines homo-, bi- and heterosexuality? You’ve seen people express “genital preferences”?

"I am not misrepresenting their ideas."

You are because you are suggesting that they want men to attend woman's spaces when they actually want trans women to attend male spaces. They dont want people like my husband showing up. Your point is as strong if you just say trans women instead of men. We understand that you don't mean biological women when you say trans women if we are smart enough to be conversing on the subject.

"I understand that perfectly. I understand that’s what they believe. And I understand that if anyone doesn’t believe this, then they don’t believe in gender ideology."

So why do you keep saying they let men in, when they let trans women in because they don't see them as men? It makes it look like you don't understand the conversation enough to meaningfully participate.

"To test your theory that it’s acceptable to express that view and be considered to in agreement with gender ideology."

But i am neither trans or queer so going into a transgender forum just to tell people why I would not date them seems trollish at best and malicious at worst. And as I am a straight woman, it would not at all prove that they are unaccepting of trans people who believe that avoiding trans people as partners is not transphobic. I am not trans. A better person to "test this theory" would be the trans man who is a regular here.

"who has said it’s because of same sex attraction"

Ive seen people pretty much say that some people just like a natal dick or vagina on a partner who also embraces a masculine or feminine persona. That pretty much leaves you with someone who is what they'd call a cis male or female.

If politicians do something for the optics, it's because they believe their supporters care.

Optics.

Just like MG may believe TW are men because of his conservative Catholic views and you may also believe TW are men but for very different reasons.

Generally people believe that TW are men because they are male. ‘Men’ being the collective noun used in English to describe (adult) males of the species. That would be the reason.

No, GIs dont believe that "men" can be lesbians, they believe TRANS WOMEN who they do not see as men can be lesbians. Misrepresenting their ideas doesnt make you seem more right. And yes I know you will follow with "how can TW not be men?" but that would just be you derailing the point that GIs do not see trans women as men.

I am not misrepresenting their ideas. I am describing their ideas in my language. It makes no difference even if I describe in their terms:

They believe trans women can be lesbians. If people don’t believe trans women can be lesbians, by definition those people don’t believe in gender ideology.

Unless you understand that a)they see TW as women and b) that is why they believe they can be lesbians, then you don't understand the conversation enough to play a real part in it.

I understand that perfectly. I understand that’s what they believe. And I understand that if anyone doesn’t believe this, then they don’t believe in gender ideology.

I dont know why I'd end up in a forum of people I would never date telling them why I wouldn't date them.

To test your theory that it’s acceptable to express that view and be considered to in agreement with gender ideology.

You won’t get far. The second you express such ideas, you will be cast as a non-believer.

What I have seen are trans and queer people giving their views of why people who arent interested in a trans partner aren't inherently transphobic.

And I’d wager that anyone who has said it’s because of same sex attraction has not been well received. Because the essence of gender ideology is to pretend sex doesn’t exist.

For the most part sexual attraction is a private matter, but it is only possible to create legislation that protects people from discrimination on the grounds of their sex or sexual orientation if sex is clearly defined in law.

It has also been necessary to confirm that it is legal for e.g. a lesbian social group to exclude men, even if they identify as a woman and have a GRC. This was a key part of the recent Supreme Court decision.

If nobody cared, it's not clear why the Scottish Government spent all that money arguing the opposite.

"Everyone who believes in gender ideology does have that belief. If you don’t believe men can be lesbians, by definition you don’t believe in gender ideology"

No, GIs dont believe that "men" can be lesbians, they believe TRANS WOMEN who they do not see as men can be lesbians. Misrepresenting their ideas doesnt make you seem more right. And yes I know you will follow with "how can TW not be men?" but that would just be you derailing the point that GIs do not see trans women as men. They don't believe my husband can be a lesbian because they see him as a cis man. Laverne Cox, they do think could be a lesbian.

Unless you understand that a)they see TW as women and b) that is why they believe they can be lesbians, then you don't understand the conversation enough to play a real part in it.

And the conversation is rarely ever "do you personally believe TW are women and why or why not?" as much as some like to turn every discussion to that topic.

Again, nobody is asking you or me to believe trans women are women. You need to understand that some other people do. And those people arent monolithic in their views.

Just like MG may believe TW are men because of his conservative Catholic views and you may also believe TW are men but for very different reasons. You both believe TW are men, but have different views about why and probably on why it is important overall.

"A woman pointing out the reality of her sex and same sex attraction massively downvoted."

I dont know why I'd end up in a forum of people I would never date telling them why I wouldn't date them.

What I have seen are trans and queer people giving their views of why people who arent interested in a trans partner aren't inherently transphobic.

For GI to be intrinsically homophobic, everyone would have to have that belief.

Everyone who believes in gender ideology does have that belief. If you don’t believe men can be lesbians, by definition you don’t believe in gender ideology.

Gender ideology is defined and characterised by its insistence that men are women in all circumstances, including being lesbians.

So people who don’t believe this are gender ideology skeptics or outcasts.

Nothing that I can see. I was reading a post on ther recently where quite a few people had that view. They didn't ban them and the comments were not minimised/hidden by the site so weren't overly downvoted either.

That is the exact opposite of what I have seen. A woman pointing out the reality of her sex and same sex attraction massively downvoted. Any rational attempt to point out this, the same.

Try it. Go and start a thread. Good luck.

"Much less common though, isn’t it? Besides, I don’t think “gay men still get targeted by trans activists for not complying with their ideology” is quite the point you’re going for to demonstrate gender ideology isn’t homophobic?"

Acknowledging that some gender ideologists believe that doesn't take anything away from the overwhelming point that not all GIs think that. For GI to be intrinsically homophobic, everyone would have to have that belief.

"And what happens to them? Is their view acceptable? Is it considered part of the accepted mantra that attraction is sex based? Or are they shunned, down voted, called names?"

Nothing that I can see. I was reading a post on ther recently where quite a few people had that view. They didn't ban them and the comments were not minimised/hidden by the site so weren't overly downvoted either.

I don't think gay men are never accused of transphobia. The issue with Heaven in Vauxhall was all over SM at the time. It was not letting in trans men or women and people said that was bad.

Much less common though, isn’t it? Besides, I don’t think “gay men still get targeted by trans activists for not complying with their ideology” is quite the point you’re going for to demonstrate gender ideology isn’t homophobic?

I dont think every trans person or trans supporter believes that. I've even seen on reddit people argue against it. Trans people.

And what happens to them? Is their view acceptable? Is it considered part of the accepted mantra that attraction is sex based? Or are they shunned, down voted, called names?

Remember it was Stonewall’s official position that attraction is gender-based, not sex based.

"Go and post that on Trans Reddit and see what they think of that. You’ll be lucky to not get banned. Of course they think it’s transphobic"

I dont think every trans person or trans supporter believes that. I've even seen on reddit people argue against it. Trans people.

"But strangely, gay men who won’t date trans identifying men don’t get the same abuse. So you’re right, it’s a specific homophobia targeting lesbians, lesbophobia. Is it irrational? No, of course not, it’s the misogyny of gender ideology, not a lack of consistency."

https://glaymaspalomas.org/blog/accessing-gay-cruising-bars/

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g186338-d187574-r611469170-G_A_Y_and_Heaven-London_England.html

I don't think gay men are never accused of transphobia. The issue with Heaven in Vauxhall was all over SM at the time. It was not letting in trans men or women and people said that was bad.

I'm guessing that if you are not, you feel it.

They don't have to do anything. They can say what they want

If they don’t want to comply with gender ideology, they can say what they want. To remain “in” with the gender ideology, they can’t say what they want.

many people do not believe the transphobia lies in stating that you arent interested in dating trans people

Go and post that on Trans Reddit and see what they think of that. You’ll be lucky to not get banned. Of course they think it’s transphobic.

lies in calling trans people by a pronoun or sexed label with which they do not identify.

Both are true. According to TRAs both of these things make you a transphobe.

If someone believes a lesbian who is not willing to date trans women is transphobic, they'll believe the same of men who won't date trans women.

But strangely, gay men who won’t date trans identifying men don’t get the same abuse. So you’re right, it’s a specific homophobia targeting lesbians, lesbophobia. Is it irrational? No, of course not, it’s the misogyny of gender ideology, not a lack of consistency.

Just like all the other made up stuff that we have to endure. None of it is funny.

Someone made up “lady penis” “neo vagina” and, indeed, “trans woman”. All stupid and dangerous.

All sounds very complicated. How does one know if other people are internally aligned with their sex? How does one know if one is internally aligned oneself? Must one also consider whether one is internally aligned with one’s lungs or blood type?

Seems so much more sensible to just treat people as human beings and recognise that sex is sometimes important.

Stop being silly. It isnt even a term used by anyone. I made it up.

There’s nothing remotely funny about the distortions of language and meaning employed by genderists.

I think I saw them at Brixton Academy.

I think you need a SoH first.

congenital vagina

Give me strength

"No cares about being called transphobic for pointing out reality."

Remember why we are even having this conversation. We are discussing this because someone said that believing in gender ideology is intrinsically homophobic. So now we are discussing how that can be the case and someone raised it is the case partly because people are labelled transphobic if they attest to not wanting to date trans people.

We are not discussing whether you care about what people think of you personally. This isnt about yours or my personal feelings. It's about the different beliefs people can hold.about sex and gender in a general sense.

"But this the homophobia. Lesbians have to temper their reasons for not being interested in men. They can’t say “it’s because they’re men”. They have to tweak it to a more “acceptable” definition so it’s “less problematic”."

They don't have to do anything. They can say what they want. I am just pointing out that many people do not believe the transphobia lies in stating that you arent interested in dating trans people, it lies in calling trans people by a pronoun or sexed label with which they do not identify.

Also, you keep referring back to "lesbians". If someone believes a lesbian who is not willing to date trans women is transphobic, they'll believe the same of men who won't date trans women. These beliefs aren't directed solely towards women. It is interesting that you want to make it seem as if it is.

I think some of that belief that it is only directed towards women and people like you is some of what makes stances like yours seem a bit... irrational.

So they may believe that you are transphobic because you are calling trans women, men.

No cares about being called transphobic for pointing out reality.

If you were to say "some people who are attracted to women aren’t attracted to trans women because they want women with natal anatomy", that would be viewed as less problematic by a lot of people

But this the homophobia. Lesbians have to temper their reasons for not being interested in men. They can’t say “it’s because they’re men”. They have to tweak it to a more “acceptable” definition so it’s “less problematic”.

The fact that lesbians saying they’re not interested in trans identifying men because they’re men is viewed as “problematic” is intrinsically homophobic.

it is that you are calling TW men that is being pulled up as discriminatory.

Which is obviously wrong. It’s not discriminatory to state reality.