Different instinctive reactions to men and trans women in public

In London no one crosses the road to avoid anyone who looks as if they might be trans.

Very odd question - hope answering it isn’t endorsing its implications. Whatever they’re trying to be.

The prison statistics cannot be denied for use for safeguarding risk analysis of the principle of whether or not transition in any way lowers the general risk of a specific group out of the general male population group.

"I'm pretty sure that prison stats will show that the mothers who kill children are overwhelmingly white. I'm not sure wee should use that statistic to judge white women outside of jail."

Unless you can make a very clear case for what you are trying to highlight here, this just seems to be a very weak 'whataboutery' distraction and one based on your own lack of confidence about what the prisoner statistics show and don't show.

By the way, did you find those papers that supported your claim about most female people believing that TWAW?

OP, all you are saying is that you find some men less threatening than others. This is unremarkable.

You judge that men who present as women are less threatening. Others might make judgements based on age or class. Some women will find all men threatening. Others will find very few men threatening.

They are all still men.

Err no, I'm actually pretty sure that white women are disproportionately represented when it comes to killing their children. I wouldnt use that to routinely safeguard children on the outside against white women.

Just a note:

It is not 'fundamental' to support female single sex provisions excluding all male people above the age of about 8 years old. Unless, of course, someone is attempting to use a false 'both sides' opinion based on assymetrical measurement of 'fundamental' and 'extreme'.

Err ... would you like to actually argue your point, along with including the principles of legitimate discrimination and safeguarding assessments?

Or are you just doubling down to make an irrelevant whataboutery point?

I think some of you are mistaken in how violent your language is in here. Remember you guys regularly say that all trans women are sex fetishes and where you can get away with it, you'll hint that they are sex offenders and paedophiles too. Mumsnet sometimes deletes these comments.

Ive seen posts where you say they shouldn't have professional roles, you wouldn't give them a job and they should be away from all children.

You use statistics from prison to support these views.

I think you need to be honest about the thoughts shared in here.

You hate them as much as they hate you.

I can't think of a situation when I've ever crossed the road to avoid anyone. Maybe once, with a group of rowdy men outside a pub. But I do tend to walk around in my own little world most of the time and don't take much notice of fellow pedestrians, unless their appearance or behaviour is particularly unusual!

However, late at night in a quiet place is a very different scenario to daytime, and we as women are more likely to be alert to potential
threats. I probably wouldn't cross the road, but I would be more wary of an obviously male person, though wouldn't automatically assume they wished me harm.

No we don’t think all transwomen are sex offenders but the stats do show they are more likely to be and it should be fine to state facts like that, it’s not violent to do so.

It’s not really on the same level of threatening to rape women with barbed wire baseball bats in any case, is it?

Yes.

And remembering that female people did not have the option to report hate crimes against women and girls.

It was never a valid comparison, yet the media and activists ran with it.

"Would I cross the road in the street" is quite specific.

My personal threat model for trans-identifying men isn't really that they are likely to randomly attack me on the street, steal my phone, or any similar risks.

But if for example one of them started working at my workplace, I would be constantly on edge as I would feel that he would be a threat to the dynamics of my well-functioning social group at work, or that my employment might be at risk as I would really, really struggle to use non-sex-based pronouns or to engage affirmatively in conversations.

Or I've attended feminist meetings in the past when there were specifically groups of TRA protestors, where I've felt more of a specific physical danger, but that's not any random person on the street.

They dont record ethnicity (wonder why!) but when a child under 5 is murdered, it is most likely to be a woman who did it and that woman is likely to be their mother.

In my time in Bronzefield, all the women who had killed their kids or any kids were white. White middle classed women who came in the jail were automatically assumed to be "bunny boilers" or child killers, and we were rarely wrong.

I never saw a trans woman when I was in jail. I did see white women who had murdered their children.

I was at an event at a hotel at the same time as a trans weekend.
I have never felt so uncomfortable in my life. 50 obvious men trying to “out woman” each other, treating their wives (those who had them with them) like shit, and very much giving off male vibes in a high needs and needing constant validation way.
Others at the same event I was at commented that before that weekend they were very much TWAW, but the atmosphere of the place also made them feel unsafe in a way that they wouldn’t if it was another hobby group full of men.
I’ve also seen a friend lose her business because TW took offence at her offering women only workshops (because too many have had bad experiences with men). Her business thrived for years, but collapsed because of a determined group of TW who wanted in on the action, even though mixed sex groups were available via my friend as well.

Non trans men have never been a threat to her business, although indirectly boosted it by giving so many women a reason to be drawn to female only events.

So to answer the op, I feel every bit as wary of TW as I do men in general, if not more, because at least when men try to encroach on women’s spaces we see them exactly for who they are, and we don’t have a bunch of man hating handmaidens screeching at us that these men are literally women 🙄

How many anti trans signs have you seen at LWS or any pro women's rights march/talk?
How many trans meetings have been disrupted by women's rights "fundies"?
How many trans rights meetings have been stopped by the releasing of insects?
How many Women have covered themselves in piss at demonstrations?
How many Women's rights marches have been led by convicted violent criminals?

You can use whataboutery etc. as much as you like but its the trans lobby that are shouting at babies, punching OAPs and threatening to rape women.

No the stats show that for the prison population..not the general population..Just like the stats likely show white women are much more likely to murder their children than any other women. That's because the number of white women who are in jail for killing their kids is disproportionate. If you looked at women who were mentally ill and are now in hospital after killing their kids, you might find it more mixed. But the women who are deepened to have capacity and killed their kids anyway are overwhelmingly white.

They’re the best stats we have. If white women are more likely to kill their kids than other women then I don’t have a problem with people discussing that either as a white woman myself, and anyway, what does that have to do with the fact that transwomen threaten rape and violence on a regular basis and gender critical women don’t?

I see the things GC women say here about trans women and how you treat them, or say youd treat them, if you ever actually interacted with one. Which most of you will not due to the low numbers.

And let's face it, most GC meets get very little attendance. I saw one on ny Facebook the other day for GC lesbians. There was about 4 of them sat together with signs (didn't read them). The comments were mostly lesbians saying they dont exclude trans women, even if they'd never date a trans woman and so they'd never attend such a group.

I'll find the post when I get back from.Sainsburys

Because we have a lot more white women around kids in the general population than we have trans women around anyone.

“You hate them as much as they hate you.”

This is where your weak arguments for ‘both sides are extreme’ are only supported by emotional reasoning.

I am yet to meet a feminist or women’s and girl’s rights campaigner who ‘hates’ male people with transgender identities.

You have ascribed hate to discussion. You also seem to have used a false negative generalisation tactic claiming that feminists and women’s and girl’s rights campaigners categorise ‘all’ male transgender people as fetishists, sex offenders and paedophiles. Please post examples of this.

Pointing out that there are issues with allowing male people to access female single sex provisions as being the polarised ‘all of these male people with transgender identities are like that’ is not doing as you assert. However, for robust safeguarding of publicly accessed female single sex provisions, ALL male people are to be treated as equal (except male children of a certain age) . No exceptions in the exclusion of that group.

It doesn’t even stand up that an exception should be made for them in any logic when the statistics are viewed and the knowledge gained from sports about male people who transition still retaining male physical advantages are analysed.

That makes no sense in regards to the question I asked. We also have far fewer child murders than we do sexual assaults though so what’s your point?

Your anecdotes are not convincing at all.

And you don’t seem to be able to produce evidence to support your claims. Nor then discuss how that information should be used for legitimate discrimination.

It is therefore nothing more than whataboutery.

Im sure you can provide evidence of equivalent signs to these at womens events

ill wait

though I suspect t this is your usual hand wavey evidence free minimising intervention

‘Trans’ is a subjective concept.

It’s suspicious that so many trans identifying men discovered their identity after arrest.

Without any objective definition of trans, the only relevant category is sex.

You will note that I tend to use trans lobby or TRAs, because the trans people that I interact with are generally nice normal people. So yues I have interacted with trans people and quite regularly as well. Do you?

The footage of GC meets says different, The meet that was interrupted by TRAs was a full convention room in a hotel, so just a few more than 4 as were the LWS meets.

But how many meets/women only venues etc. have to be disrupted before you accept that its an issue? Or are you happy with the threats of violence and rape?

Which stats are you talking about here? I’m struggling to find them.

I do know there is a disgruntled man push to paint women as evil, but it’s incredibly difficult to find stats that back them up.

For example they’ve tried to obfuscate stats to suggest that lesbian partners are more likely to be domestic abusers - research that they twisted and left out vital information that the study was looking at all partners, past or present, which happened (surprise surprise) to mostly be men.

Or the skewed stats that abusers of young children were more likely to be women, leaving out that once the figures were adjusted to take into account how many more women are single parents and how many women spend far more time alone with their children. Once adjusted it showed that, once again, men are more likely to be abusive.

So forgive my distrust of anyone with an agenda to paint women as killers when every stat shows that men out-perform women in every criminal area.