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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)

187 replies

impossibletoday · 31/07/2026 20:33

Noticed on the commonwealth games website. All the athletics events I looked at showed both the world record and the games record......

except the women's 800m.

Guess who holds that record from 2016.

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
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puffyisgood · 11/08/2026 18:19

thirdfiddle · 06/08/2026 17:59

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

It's sad that we end up questioning individuals like this. You might well be completely right, I dislike guessing individuals on the basis of appearance. We shouldn't be having to do that. Even though it has been a very accurate method so far. This is another reason we absolutely need universal sex screening for female athletes, so that individual athletes don't end up under the eye of suspicion. Like drugs testing, it protects the innocent from suspicion as much as catching the guilty.

I don't think there's any real question over either Chawingwa sister.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbxxCQYs7Ln/

Mike Mubanga on Instagram: "“I will speak in Chichewa…” Tabitha Chawinga has a special message for the #Malawi fans ahead of the big quarter-final. #TabithaChawinga #Ghana #WAFCON2026 #Morocco"

548 likes, 20 comments - mikemubanga on August 8, 2026: "“I will speak in Chichewa…” Tabitha Chawinga has a special message for the #Malawi fans ahead of the big quarter-final. #TabithaChawinga #Ghana #WAFCON2026 #Morocco".

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbxxCQYs7Ln

thirdfiddle · 06/08/2026 17:59

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

It's sad that we end up questioning individuals like this. You might well be completely right, I dislike guessing individuals on the basis of appearance. We shouldn't be having to do that. Even though it has been a very accurate method so far. This is another reason we absolutely need universal sex screening for female athletes, so that individual athletes don't end up under the eye of suspicion. Like drugs testing, it protects the innocent from suspicion as much as catching the guilty.

GrumpyPanda · 06/08/2026 01:31

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 12:39

It is time for FIFA and the world football associations to get this sorted.

When you have people described as the highest paid female players who have previously failed sex screening tests it is a huge problem that these organisations are sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring.

It will be very clear who does and doesn’t play in the Olympics if football is played.

Bwahahaha. A couple of years ago the German football association imposed a five-digit fine on a Bundesliga club for an "Only two sexes" fan banner.

GrumpyPanda · 06/08/2026 01:11

Millie767 · 03/08/2026 06:29

You seem to be interpreting what I said as the first part of this definition, rather than the second:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bioessentialism

And your point is...? Dictionaries record usage, they don't define concepts. In this case, what they record is dimwitted misunderstanding and/or wilfully misinterpreting the meaning of the term.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 18:45

spannasaurus · 04/08/2026 18:39

Last year, the Iranian football governing body introduced random checks after four national players were found to be men who had not had fully completed sex operations, or had development disorders

This part of the Independent report reads to me as though the men would have been eligible to play if they had a DSD or if they had genital surgery

Thanks

That would be consistent with what I assumed.

spannasaurus · 04/08/2026 18:39

Last year, the Iranian football governing body introduced random checks after four national players were found to be men who had not had fully completed sex operations, or had development disorders

This part of the Independent report reads to me as though the men would have been eligible to play if they had a DSD or if they had genital surgery

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 17:54

hethor · 04/08/2026 17:48

It wasn't organized by the Iranian FA. This was happening contrary to their official policy, and when someone blew the whistle the authorities carried out sex eligibility testing on the whole team.

That is interesting....

Do you think they have maintained that sex screening for every player starting with them? And does that cover those with DSDs? Because with some of the players that applied to or did end up staying in Australia, I must admit to thinking the Iranian team was still allowing male players in the female game after watching how they moved on the field.

hethor · 04/08/2026 17:48

spannasaurus · 04/08/2026 15:00

What was more complicated. I've read the report linked in your post and it says that eight men awaiting sex operations had been knowingly playing for the team.

Edited

It wasn't organized by the Iranian FA. This was happening contrary to their official policy, and when someone blew the whistle the authorities carried out sex eligibility testing on the whole team.

spannasaurus · 04/08/2026 15:00

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 14:41

It was a bit more complicated than that and it was an Iranian official who put a stop to it after the Iranian governing body carried out random checks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/eight-of-iran-s-women-s-football-team-accused-of-being-men-a6675576.html

What was more complicated. I've read the report linked in your post and it says that eight men awaiting sex operations had been knowingly playing for the team.

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 14:41

spannasaurus · 04/08/2026 13:21

Iran has been including male players on the woman's football team for some time. In 2015 8 of the women's team were men

It was a bit more complicated than that and it was an Iranian official who put a stop to it after the Iranian governing body carried out random checks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/eight-of-iran-s-women-s-football-team-accused-of-being-men-a6675576.html

Official accuses most of Iran's women's football team of being men

Authorities have reportedly ordered gender testing of the entire national squad and leading league players

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/eight-of-iran-s-women-s-football-team-accused-of-being-men-a6675576.html

spannasaurus · 04/08/2026 13:21

Iran has been including male players on the woman's football team for some time. In 2015 8 of the women's team were men

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 13:19

There has to be a decision to screen and exclude these players. This cannot continue in light of the OIC decision.

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 13:16

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:27

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

The Chawingwa 'sisters' are obviousy both male. Those two and Banda are maybe the highest profile examples.

But generally it's endemic, I've not had the time or inclination to look up even all of the really egregious examples but Tanzania has at least one such player (see https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2-iggoOgJa0). Zambia has multiple others aside from Banda, e.g. Chilufya (see ) and Nachula (see ).

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 12:45

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:27

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

I believe 3 in the Zambian team have previously failed testing or rejected testing meaning they were excluded from the African cup at one stage. Racheal Kundananji was another.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4851714-barbra-banda?page=1

Barbra Banda | Mumsnet

Does anyone have any information about the actual sex of this person? [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12282149/amp/Zambia-strike...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4851714-barbra-banda?page=1

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 12:39

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 12:12

Re: "banned from sport", the DSD issue has just moved on to women's football.

Tomorrow night's Malawi-Zambia game will include at least five DSD males, nearly all of them in the key glamour/ attacking positions. One of them is a 40 year old who took refuge from athletics presumably after the Semenya rules came in.

All are eligible to play in Olympics and World cups, and are some of the best paid players in US and European pro leagues.

Edited

It is time for FIFA and the world football associations to get this sorted.

When you have people described as the highest paid female players who have previously failed sex screening tests it is a huge problem that these organisations are sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring.

It will be very clear who does and doesn’t play in the Olympics if football is played.

FrippEnos · 04/08/2026 12:36

SwirlyGates · 04/08/2026 10:39

’But sport is a human right!’
(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

If I had a pound for every article on including men in women-only sports, where either the headline or some poor TiM said he was being "banned" from his sport....

Its is interesting that the response to women saying that its not fair was/is practice more.

Yet the response to actual men in women's sport is equility/equity, were in reality if TIMs did practice more they now that they would fail in the sport, as they have shown by their overall placement (see Thomes at 462 in men's sports No 1 in women's)

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:27

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 12:12

Re: "banned from sport", the DSD issue has just moved on to women's football.

Tomorrow night's Malawi-Zambia game will include at least five DSD males, nearly all of them in the key glamour/ attacking positions. One of them is a 40 year old who took refuge from athletics presumably after the Semenya rules came in.

All are eligible to play in Olympics and World cups, and are some of the best paid players in US and European pro leagues.

Edited

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

murasaki · 04/08/2026 12:21

Also because he gives no shits about the women's game.

murasaki · 04/08/2026 12:20

And Infantino won't do anything about it because given his recent behaviour, the support of the African Federations is pretty much all he's got. So he's not going to do anything that weakens their teams.

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:20

I first became aware of all this in sport, when transgender athlete Rachel McKinnon won the women's masters World championships in 2018. Now of course, this isn't the same as athletes with DSD's, but it is on a parallel. What I didn't know however, back in 2018, was that McKinnon wasn't the first. In 2001, another Canadian transwoman cyclist was allowed to compete in the women's category, Michelle Dumaresq and he was also allowed to win three or four Canadian national championships. After Dumaresq won the national title in 2006, there was a protest, which resulted in the female runner up being suspended.
This has led to me believing, that women's sports should be governed by women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

Michelle Dumaresq - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 12:12

Re: "banned from sport", the DSD issue has just moved on to women's football.

Tomorrow night's Malawi-Zambia game will include at least five DSD males, nearly all of them in the key glamour/ attacking positions. One of them is a 40 year old who took refuge from athletics presumably after the Semenya rules came in.

All are eligible to play in Olympics and World cups, and are some of the best paid players in US and European pro leagues.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 10:48

SwirlyGates · 04/08/2026 10:39

’But sport is a human right!’
(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

If I had a pound for every article on including men in women-only sports, where either the headline or some poor TiM said he was being "banned" from his sport....

Yes.

This is the thing. It is misinformation all the way down.

They are not ‘banned from sport’. They can play sport within their appropriate sex category.

It is not even clever emotional manipulation once you understand just how false that claim is.

They still have access to sport. Their rights are intact.

Posters and others misrepresenting the facts are spreading misinformation. Usually to perpetuate other false information and / or purely emotional manipulation.

SwirlyGates · 04/08/2026 10:39

’But sport is a human right!’
(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

If I had a pound for every article on including men in women-only sports, where either the headline or some poor TiM said he was being "banned" from his sport....

viques · 04/08/2026 07:40

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 05:31

I think the pattern we see of the arguments to support male athletes such as Semenya fall into :

Sex is complicated so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(No. For the purpose of playing sport, screening for conditions where a male a
body produces male levels of testosterone and processes it to virilise is not ‘complicated’ at all)

It is racist to exclude these male athletes so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This is based on several aspects, one is an absurd ‘standards of beauty’ which is immediately redundant when it is realised that it is the accuser who is racist in declaring that male people should be set as any benchmark for female ‘beauty’, and looks have nothing to do with sporting performance. Also, more importantly though, those making such accusations forget the female athletes negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group of male athletes).

Then comes the calls to emotion.

These male athletes have had their entire life changed by the discovery they are not female so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Every single day peoole across the world face similar discoveries, why does this male athlete group deserve special treatment when all the others have to face reality that they cannot compete in the sport category, or even the sport, they want to?)

These male people have suffered deprivation and hardship so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This weak argument ignores the many female athletes with similar life experiences who are negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group. And more importantly, deprivation and hardship should not mean such extraordinary accommodations being made that cause female people to be so negatively impacted. Grants, bursaries etc yes. Inclusion in a protected category that they don’t belong in, no)

The sporting federation allowed it so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Sure. But this also removes the agency for male athletes to acknowledge what was at one stage universally understood without need to seek fresh evidence - that this group of male athletes have advantages and they should respect female athlete’s needs)

Usually we also see such fallacies and falsehoods of :

’Only a few’

(The count of displaced and negative impacted female athletes can be huge for each and every single male athlete being included in competitive level sport. It is still meaningful when safety is considered at social level)

’But natural variation!’

(Protected sport categories allow for a wide range of allowable body variations within the protected characteristic. The expectation is for everyone person who has a combination of natural attributes that give performance benefits, others will have another combination that will
compete.)

’But sport is a human right!’

(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

They don’t always come first.

(This is irrelevant. The inclusion of this group means a mediocre male athlete, when compared to exceptional male athletes in the sport, still causes safety and loss of opportunity for female athletes. And those female athletes who win are even more exceptionally skilled because they win! )

This list is just some of the most common flawed arguments we see on these threads defending male athletes who have a body that produces male levels of testosterone that their body processes to virilise making considered, conscious and free choices to compete (or continue competing after finding out) in female sports categories.

The one thing they all have in common is that they never once centre the female athletes who are unfairly negatively impacted. These arguments always centre the male athlete.

In addition, we are also told we should be kind and use female language for male people who know they are male people and choose to disrespect female athletes’ needs. I would go so far as to say they are, intentionally or not, abusing female people. Why are we, as women, expected to use inaccurate language that is female language for male people when doing so perpetuates the harm to female people individually and collectively?

Edited

We are going to need a bigger T shirt to get all those points on!

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 05:31

I think the pattern we see of the arguments to support male athletes such as Semenya fall into :

Sex is complicated so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(No. For the purpose of playing sport, screening for conditions where a male a
body produces male levels of testosterone and processes it to virilise is not ‘complicated’ at all)

It is racist to exclude these male athletes so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This is based on several aspects, one is an absurd ‘standards of beauty’ which is immediately redundant when it is realised that it is the accuser who is racist in declaring that male people should be set as any benchmark for female ‘beauty’, and looks have nothing to do with sporting performance. Also, more importantly though, those making such accusations forget the female athletes negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group of male athletes).

Then comes the calls to emotion.

These male athletes have had their entire life changed by the discovery they are not female so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Every single day peoole across the world face similar discoveries, why does this male athlete group deserve special treatment when all the others have to face reality that they cannot compete in the sport category, or even the sport, they want to?)

These male people have suffered deprivation and hardship so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This weak argument ignores the many female athletes with similar life experiences who are negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group. And more importantly, deprivation and hardship should not mean such extraordinary accommodations being made that cause female people to be so negatively impacted. Grants, bursaries etc yes. Inclusion in a protected category that they don’t belong in, no)

The sporting federation allowed it so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Sure. But this also removes the agency for male athletes to acknowledge what was at one stage universally understood without need to seek fresh evidence - that this group of male athletes have advantages and they should respect female athlete’s needs)

Usually we also see such fallacies and falsehoods of :

’Only a few’

(The count of displaced and negative impacted female athletes can be huge for each and every single male athlete being included in competitive level sport. It is still meaningful when safety is considered at social level)

’But natural variation!’

(Protected sport categories allow for a wide range of allowable body variations within the protected characteristic. The expectation is for everyone person who has a combination of natural attributes that give performance benefits, others will have another combination that will
compete.)

’But sport is a human right!’

(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

They don’t always come first.

(This is irrelevant. The inclusion of this group means a mediocre male athlete, when compared to exceptional male athletes in the sport, still causes safety and loss of opportunity for female athletes. And those female athletes who win are even more exceptionally skilled because they win! )

This list is just some of the most common flawed arguments we see on these threads defending male athletes who have a body that produces male levels of testosterone that their body processes to virilise making considered, conscious and free choices to compete (or continue competing after finding out) in female sports categories.

The one thing they all have in common is that they never once centre the female athletes who are unfairly negatively impacted. These arguments always centre the male athlete.

In addition, we are also told we should be kind and use female language for male people who know they are male people and choose to disrespect female athletes’ needs. I would go so far as to say they are, intentionally or not, abusing female people. Why are we, as women, expected to use inaccurate language that is female language for male people when doing so perpetuates the harm to female people individually and collectively?