UK radical feminists; what to do?

Gretel isn't keen on facts.

You said:
And I'm not going trawl thru threads because I don't believe for one second prove Amnesty's policy of single sex spaces in toilets as you have repeatedly misrepresented facts & as such would be a waste of my time.

I gave you the facts.

It might help if you are able to follow the thread (which doesn’t seem possible) before making irrelevant random out of context allegations. If you did you would know the context here was the inconsistency in demanding single sex spaces in toilets due to male violence but not elsewhere where sexual violence is more common. You demanded proof of this which you were provided with & now are pivoting elsewhere to avoid acknowledging your ignorance or hypocrisy not sure which but given your bad faith actions I'm going with hypocrisy.

And I'm not going trawl thru threads because I don't believe for one second prove Amnesty's policy of single sex spaces in toilets as you have repeatedly misrepresented facts & as such would be a waste of my time. That you can't quote them here proves this.

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

Yes. It's a shame that those involved failed to speak up from the outset. It would have been very powerful if they'd confirmed that "We never imagined that there would be people peddling the fantasy that you can just make up what sex you are" and may have given many parliamentarians the confidence to stand up to the relentless bullying and intimidation from the trans mob.

You got a men's loo, a ladies loo and a gender neutral loo that was previously the disabled, which is how most employers will frig it.

You look pretty much female and nobody has any suspicion that you are disabled in any way that needs you to use a bigger loo. You head off to the loo and a female colleague follows you, expecting to go into the same loos. You peel off to the disabled.

If there were no sexed loos there wouldn't be an issue, but yes I can see how this is considered outing by people who have been completely accepted should be treated as female at work.

You gave me details about REFUGEE CAMPS toilets in third world countries pertaining to males & females not trans people in first world countries.

The bad faith desperation is breathtaking.

males & females not trans people

Eh?

All helpful to show there’s no substance to their argument.

You gave me details about REFUGEE CAMPS toilets in third world countries pertaining to males & females not trans people in first world countries.

The bad faith desperation is breathtaking.

Dear Gretel.

Last year I went to a mini festival.

At the festival were two talks.

The first was for LGBT people about how to get more involved in outdoor adventures and the barriers they faced.

The second was for women about how to get more involved in outdoor adventures and the barriers they faced.

I went to the second.

Some background. My husband is a kayaking and climbing coach in his spare time. Both can be very macho. Kayaking often requires strength, whilst climbing is a unique sport where women can often do better than men because it's about strength to weight ratios rather than pure strength.

Both are heavily dominated by men though because of this macho stuff and lots of things that men don't think about.

For example, getting a kayak back on top of a car.

This is a struggle for most women but not something men even think about.

If you go kayaking and need to get your boat in and out of the water, the etiquette is you carry your own boat. This is a problem. And actually most women kayakers don't like asking men to do it for them. Cos it's embarrassing and makes you feel like a burden, and there's always the thing in the back of your mind that you won't be invited again because you are extra hard work.

So what women tend to do is work in pairs to carry. This requires you to have a kayaking partner.

The whole premise of the group was built around this idea that women, for various reasons including the very practical one above, tend to prefer to do outdoor activities in pairs. And surveys had found that a lack of a buddy was one reason women's participation was so much lower.

Even for me, someone who prefers the company of men, doing kayaking pool sessions with a group of men only aged 25-65 I don't know is really intimidating. I will only go if I have DH or a female friend. Keep in mind I've travelled across the world on my own and been to gigs for years on my own and don't think twice about this.

Anyway this talk, discussed this and how the group was effectively a notice board to find a buddy. This in itself raises safeguarding concerns of you are meeting up with a stranger to go out into the wilderness. It is important to a lot of women that it's actually a woman and not a liar with a penis or even post penis.

The talk then discussed issues around childcare, birth injuries, menopause, bone density and keeping yourself fit and healthy into older age. It talked about practical issues around safety and going to the toilet in areas without toilet facilities - including period issues. It talked about birth injuries and coming back from birth after changes to your body. It talked about how women wanted to talk about these issues with their bodies in the context of outdoor adventures without men there - remembering many transactivists have worked to label these conversations as insensitive if done in the presence of transwomen. It talked about ethnic and religious minorities and outdoor adventures and how mixed sex groups could be a barrier for some and how under represented non-white women in outdoor adventures were for a variety of reasons, often relating to sex.

It talked about financial barriers, especially for women who were sole earners in a household and how this can also be a motivation for wanting to do sport with a buddy to keep costs down. (Transport for starters, sharing a room being another).

There were so many of these issues that were unique to women or applied mainly to women and were silent within conversations.

The other point was about how this impacted on coaching. Both climbing and kayaking have governing bodies which are recognising that a lot of women respond better to different coaching techniques. Women are often more lacking in confidence on the water - which when you examine it makes sense. They have less strength to be able to paddle themselves out of situations that a man would be able to manage with brute force alone. Women can compensate for this with greater early focus on good technique. Then there's the macho bravado stuff that women just don't buy into and find really off putting. One of DHs good friends is a full time kayak instructor and he has got a great reputation within the female kayaking community for recognising this and tailoring his sessions accordingly (including factoring toilet breaks within his session which he impressed me with). Both sports are generally particularly progressive and full of people who are of that mindset. Yet there's still this unmet need. It's a bit of a paradox - the above mentioned friend was full on TWAW and has lots of trans friends and it's something we have argued over but he has come around to my way of thinking in the last year or so (not least because of the attitude and behaviour of some of his friends which greatly upset him and shone a light on what I'd been saying and why).

There's also the issue of being the only female in a group and not wanting to be constantly bloody hit on by the men, or have comments made either well intended or patronising. It's about just wanting to get on with the sport. (I note here that climbing walls are the new place to go on the pull at a time where people drink less, which adds another layer of complication)

NONE of this is internalised misogyny. ALL of it is practical on some level. This is the visibility of womens only issues that don't affect men. This isn't about being arses. Or internalised misogyny on the part of women. This is primarily about the practical issues that our bodies present. With some elements of how misogny has been a negative impact on our participation.

So I was massively pissed off when at the end of this session two tittering and giggling blokes asked if they could join. To which the talkers begrudgingly and visibly uncomfortably said yes.

This destroying the entire purpose and value of the group for me and clearly others, who rapidly scuttled off after being intensely interested. It clearly led to immediate decision making that the group wasn't for many of those interested because it was a target. DH who was with me (and interested for improving his coaching and understanding) was shocked. I'd nudged him and told him what was about to happen. For years DH had said I was ridiculous and exaggerating in saying blokes were actively targeting womens only groups for shits and giggles often with a view to destroying. Here it was happening before his eyes in his beloved own sports. He can't deny any of it now.

So politely, don't fucking tell me it's internalised misogyny. These two men had an inclusivity programme for them but that wasn't good enough. They had to come and piss on someone elses parade and mark their territory. When the group offers nothing for them that isn't available elsewhere apart from validation and the use of women.

This is entirely about offering a specialist service to bridge gaps that continue to exist within sport - often with a view to enable greater mixed sex participation rather than encourage segregation.

I will continue to post about this story until the message gets through to the people it matters to. That's not transactivists intent on destruction. It's for the benefit of the sane heads, the people in power and the be kinders who have missed the point until now.

Refugee camps? Are you serious?

As I said, bad faith.

Dear Gretel.

Last year I went to a mini festival.

At the festival were two talks.

The first was for LGBT people about how to get more involved in outdoor adventures and the barriers they faced.

The second was for women about how to get more involved in outdoor adventures and the barriers they faced.

I went to the second.

Some background. My husband is a kayaking and climbing coach in his spare time. Both can be very macho. Kayaking often requires strength, whilst climbing is a unique sport where women can often do better than men because it's about strength to weight ratios rather than pure strength.

Both are heavily dominated by men though because of this macho stuff and lots of things that men don't think about.

For example, getting a kayak back on top of a car.

This is a struggle for most women but not something men even think about.

If you go kayaking and need to get your boat in and out of the water, the etiquette is you carry your own boat. This is a problem. And actually most women kayakers don't like asking men to do it for them. Cos it's embarrassing and makes you feel like a burden, and there's always the thing in the back of your mind that you won't be invited again because you are extra hard work.

So what women tend to do is work in pairs to carry. This requires you to have a kayaking partner.

The whole premise of the group was built around this idea that women, for various reasons including the very practical one above, tend to prefer to do outdoor activities in pairs. And surveys had found that a lack of a buddy was one reason women's participation was so much lower.

Even for me, someone who prefers the company of men, doing kayaking pool sessions with a group of men only aged 25-65 I don't know is really intimidating. I will only go if I have DH or a female friend. Keep in mind I've travelled across the world on my own and been to gigs for years on my own and don't think twice about this.

Anyway this talk, discussed this and how the group was effectively a notice board to find a buddy. This in itself raises safeguarding concerns of you are meeting up with a stranger to go out into the wilderness. It is important to a lot of women that it's actually a woman and not a liar with a penis or even post penis.

The talk then discussed issues around childcare, birth injuries, menopause, bone density and keeping yourself fit and healthy into older age. It talked about practical issues around safety and going to the toilet in areas without toilet facilities - including period issues. It talked about birth injuries and coming back from birth after changes to your body. It talked about how women wanted to talk about these issues with their bodies in the context of outdoor adventures without men there - remembering many transactivists have worked to label these conversations as insensitive if done in the presence of transwomen. It talked about ethnic and religious minorities and outdoor adventures and how mixed sex groups could be a barrier for some and how under represented non-white women in outdoor adventures were for a variety of reasons, often relating to sex.

It talked about financial barriers, especially for women who were sole earners in a household and how this can also be a motivation for wanting to do sport with a buddy to keep costs down. (Transport for starters, sharing a room being another).

There were so many of these issues that were unique to women or applied mainly to women and were silent within conversations.

The other point was about how this impacted on coaching. Both climbing and kayaking have governing bodies which are recognising that a lot of women respond better to different coaching techniques. Women are often more lacking in confidence on the water - which when you examine it makes sense. They have less strength to be able to paddle themselves out of situations that a man would be able to manage with brute force alone. Women can compensate for this with greater early focus on good technique. Then there's the macho bravado stuff that women just don't buy into and find really off putting. One of DHs good friends is a full time kayak instructor and he has got a great reputation within the female kayaking community for recognising this and tailoring his sessions accordingly (including factoring toilet breaks within his session which he impressed me with). Both sports are generally particularly progressive and full of people who are of that mindset. Yet there's still this unmet need. It's a bit of a paradox - the above mentioned friend was full on TWAW and has lots of trans friends and it's something we have argued over but he has come around to my way of thinking in the last year or so (not least because of the attitude and behaviour of some of his friends which greatly upset him and shone a light on what I'd been saying and why).

There's also the issue of being the only female in a group and not wanting to be constantly bloody hit on by the men, or have comments made either well intended or patronising. It's about just wanting to get on with the sport. (I note here that climbing walls are the new place to go on the pull at a time where people drink less, which adds another layer of complication)

NONE of this is internalised misogyny. ALL of it is practical on some level. This is the visibility of womens only issues that don't affect men. This isn't about being arses. Or internalised misogyny on the part of women. This is primarily about the practical issues that our bodies present. With some elements of how misogny has been a negative impact on our participation.

So I was massively pissed off when at the end of this session two tittering and giggling blokes asked if they could join. To which the talkers begrudgingly and visibly uncomfortably said yes.

This destroying the entire purpose and value of the group for me and clearly others, who rapidly scuttled off after being intensely interested. It clearly led to immediate decision making that the group wasn't for many of those interested because it was a target. DH who was with me (and interested for improving his coaching and understanding) was shocked. I'd nudged him and told him what was about to happen. For years DH had said I was ridiculous and exaggerating in saying blokes were actively targeting womens only groups for shits and giggles often with a view to destroying. Here it was happening before his eyes in his beloved own sports. He can't deny any of it now.

So politely, don't fucking tell me it's internalised misogyny. These two men had an inclusivity programme for them but that wasn't good enough. They had to come and piss on someone elses parade and mark their territory. When the group offers nothing for them that isn't available elsewhere apart from validation and the use of women.

This is entirely about offering a specialist service to bridge gaps that continue to exist within sport - often with a view to enable greater mixed sex participation rather than encourage segregation.

I will continue to post about this story until the message gets through to the people it matters to. That's not transactivists intent on destruction. It's for the benefit of the sane heads, the people in power and the be kinders who have missed the point until now.

You gave me details about REFUGEE CAMPS toilets in third world countries pertaining to males & females not trans people in first world countries.

The bad faith desperation is breathtaking.

I never suggested the desire for single sex spaces was misogynistic. On the contrary, I repeatedly stated my support for them when they met proportionality exemption criteria. What I do consider misogynistic as previously stated was femininity shaming that's in keeping with the context of this thread being the distinction between Britain & the rest of the world.

Its a false equivalence. Refugee camps in third world countries aren't known for law & order so violence is a significantly bigger risk hence its important to keep men & women separated.

Amnesty aren't referring to the exclusion of trans people. If they were they wouldn't just be referring to refugee camps but broadly. In fact Amnesty Policy is to support trans inclusion in toilets.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/12/growing-transphobia-and-authoritarianism-go-hand-in-hand-they-must-be-resisted/

What is the relevance of femininity shaming? (and what is femininity shaming?)

I thought the OP was making the case that the British are more likely to value single sex spaces, compared to other countries where e.g. mixed sex saunas are more common.

I don't know whether that is true, but that is an argument about mixed and single sex provision.

If anything The UK is more accepting of gender nonconformity than other countries, hence 'gender critical feminists' and scepticism about identifying with gender roles.

What in the ever loving fuck is 'femininity shaming'?

If you mean 'low income' when you say 'third world', plenty of rich countries have areas that aren't 'known for law & order' (and there are plenty of refugee camps in richer countries).

You will need to be more specific in your explanation of why KTS's example isn't relevant.

What in the ever loving fuck is 'femininity shaming'?

Its a false equivalence. Refugee camps in third world countries aren't known for law & order so violence is a significantly bigger risk hence its important to keep men & women separated.

Amnesty aren't referring to the exclusion of trans people. If they were they wouldn't just be referring to refugee camps but broadly. In fact Amnesty Policy is to support trans inclusion in toilets.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/12/growing-transphobia-and-authoritarianism-go-hand-in-hand-they-must-be-resisted/