UK radical feminists; what to do?

You do realise that there are many gender critical women in Australia? And I imagine that the general public are as dismissive of the idea that men can be women as they are here.

It's not that deep.

Women here are still free to say that biological sex has significant consequences especially for women. So we continue to say it.

Wonen in some other countries sadly not so much.

I would ask you though, what on earth is the point of dividing people up by gender and putting labels on their personalities?

Labelling sex makes sense - like it or not, there are meaningful differences between male and female bodies and thise difference would have consequences whether we name them.or not.

But gender? Personalities? What on earth is the point of ignoring sex but then bringing in a whole new basis for division, segregating people by personality and saying those differences are the ones that really matter?

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

Faux academic jargon.

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

I think they were represented among the suffragettes too weren’t they?

The Dagenham strike was in the 60s, so even earlier.

There is another element to our home grown feminism which is the miners strike 1984/5 and the rise of working class women

There is another element to our home grown feminism which is the miners strike 1984/5 and the rise of working class women

I mostly hung around with males and i was in a group of biker boys.

we had a recent reunion, some of them thought i, as very left wing would support men pretending to be women. They all thought they were being politically right on.

suffice it to say the evening was spent correcting them.

You only have to read Róisín Michaux/Peaked to see the binfire that is the EU and European nations re traducing women's sex based rights.
In Germany, at one end of your street you have a mega brothel with hundreds of johns visiting everyday, at the other end, places that women visit like gyms that fully allow men to use what should be female exclusive spaces, and in the middle, the most draconian anti free speech rules to punitively penalise anyone criticising self ID, trans ideology.
If that's "anti-TERF heaven", I'll take "pro-TERF hell" instead.

I can fully understand that. In my rogue youth, I hung out with absolutely the wrong men, and have to admit, watched the wrong stuff.
I had to make a conscious effort to move past this, create new attitudes.
Maybe it's a reason I'm so angry as a male about all this, especially the normalisation of the transgressive male.
I'm aware of the poison of this aspect of male culture, as it's been co-opted into the culture.
And so much has been poisoned as a result.

I could write a book about male sexual proclivities, as a hetro sexual woman who was sexually active in the early eighties. Pre AIDS.

As my lovely (sometimes cave man) husband is clear about, all men are potential rapists. It is, as far as he is concerned a matter of self control, social constraints and feisty women like me who keep him respectful.

thats also why males get angered and protective of thier female daughters. They know what goes on in men’s heads.

Cross dressing and kinks in males with power (be that social or personal relationship wise) is very common.

Power by itself can cease to feed the testosterone beast. So they look for other outlets.

Cross dressing was a thing in the nazi party.

Mussolini loved a bit of S & M as did Hitler.

I argued in the eighties that a matriarchy is what is needed, where male boys are taught to understand their urges at an early age.

extreme i might sound, i worked in SV and DVA for many years. The worst bit about my professional life was watching male participant professionals in strategy meetings getting off on discussions about female abuse and in particular genital mutilation.

My deputy and I used to attend together and had a score sheet for male eye dilation etc

I Kid you not.