Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

Yep.

I understand the goal, and many of the reasons for using the NB descriptor.

However, the demands that the NB might feel and make are still significant. And the question then remains, logically it simply doesn’t work because for a non-binary category to exist, everyone else has to be designated as ‘binary’ which is false and it does reinforce sexism. It is incoherent as a category. It should not be recognised as any separate group under the main group of protected beliefs.

Nearly all women think that. It's a common female.experience. for me, it underpins the entire point of feminism.

To say you're not a woman because you think that suggests you think all other women don't want to be seen as 'people' and want everyone to focus on the fact we're female.

We don't.

We don't want people to be sexist towards us. This seems an incredibly difficult concept for people to truly accept.

Remember though, there are male people with transgender identities that are not those calling themselves women who demand access into female single sex spaces. Including this one last year:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5355097-the-guardian-trans-australian-kicked-out-of-toilet?page=1

Exactly, the end.

True @Hellebore. I do have a soft spot for them because I think I understand the motivation, and also the thrill of being part of a protest group when you are young. Until the authoritarian language starts, and until the mastectomies happen.

Let’s remember though, that people with NB identities still demand people personalise language to suit them.

Demanding someone use they/them is still making unreasonable language demands on people. It is also bringing attention directly to that person’s sex by making it is feature while believing they are making it a non-feature.

And as has already been pointed out, female people are having elective double mastectomies to nullify the sex characteristics of their body. Plus don’t forget the plastic surgeons in the USA who offer to insert a cavity made of intestinal tissue between a male person’s penis and anus.

Potholes started this thread about the Boston Marathon complaint. In 2022

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4667370-some-light-relief-in-sport

The first NB categories started that year in some city marathons and female runners quickly worked out the issues with it as a category.

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. She sees that there are disadvantages to being a woman and she is trying to opt out of them. She can't do this of course. She can try to make people call her they/ them but she can't stop them from seeing that she is a woman, and therefore treating her as a woman. In fact, arguably by making them call her they/them she is in fact drawing MORE attention to the fact that she is a woman. Because by getting them to refuse to acknowledge her sex, she is drawing attention to her sex. She is making it harder to 'just see her as a person' not easier, because everyone has to consciously remember not to refer to the fact she is female instead of just engaging with her character or intelligence or wit.

Sadly though, a focus of being non-binary - for women -does seem to be self-harming through breast binding or even mastectomy. Funny that. All a man needs to do is wear 'interesting' arty clothes and paint his nails.

Well that's not surprising. NB is the least effort of the trans identities. You don't really need to do anything other than say you are non-binary and tell people to call you they/them. All the social cache with none of the pain.

Its like bulimia was the most prevalent of the eating disorders as its the least effort eating disorder to have.

The least effort of anything will always win the social contagion war.

@TediousMansplainer

Then she's welcome to joint the sisterhood! Does she really think all us grown women love being stereotyped on the basis of our sex? They've been led to believe that the way out of that is to be non-binary, but it won't protect them because everyone, everyone knows what sex they are. Their boring old feminist mothers are the way out

Of course it's rooted in misogyny.

It's rooted in the assumption that all the other women haven't tried or don't want to be seen as a person first, but your child is different and special and other to boring everyday women who live the female stereotype without realising the world could be different.

Your daughter doesn't realise that the women she sees in the world only seem to fit stereotypical womanhood because that is how your daughter sees them. It's her own sexism that reduces them, not who they actually are.

Yes because all other women just love not being g treated as a person!

its classic NB "In not like other other girls, I'm diffetent, I'm special, those other girls must like all the everyday sexist crap but not me"

she's a woman, she can't identify her way out of misogyny just by saying "call me they"

From your username I'm guessing you are a bloke?

Maybe next time ask her, curiously rather than confrontationally, if that means she thinks of her mother as a woman rather than a person?

You never know, it might start her thinking a bit more critically about things.

If anything, I think being nonbinary & using they/them is likely to draw more attention to your daughter’s sex, not less.

It is utterly rooted in misogyny.

What your daughter is saying is that all the rest of us women who are not calling ourselves non binary have actively chosen to be treated as second class citizens.

Come on. You may be a man, but surely you aren’t an idiot. No woman wants to be treated differently because she is a woman - or do you think we all love it, really, the lower pay and the expectation that we will do all the housework and the assumption that we all love fashion and can’t do maths? But misogyny exists, so here we are. Many of us try to change the system - your daughter is trying to pretend she can escape the system. She can’t. And she is insulting those of us who don’t try to pretend we can.

I understood it to mean "I don't want people to focus on the fact that I am a woman, and treat me differently because of it". I don't know really. Is it rooted in misogyny? I am a man, I don't know what it feels like to be a woman.

They think being a woman isn't even a person?
Or just that others think that?

Either way, you can see how it's all rooted in misogyny.

"A person, not a woman" - what a thoroughly depressing statement

I have a grown up child who has told me they are non binary. When I asked what it meant, the answer was "I want people to think of me as a person rather than as a woman". I am not sure what to make of that but I am not sure that it is whiny, performative or attention seeking.

Are you sure about that? https://www.transresearch.org.au/post/nonbinarygahtgas

As irritating as 'non-binary' is, that's a good thing, because the vast majority of them don't pursue mutilating and health damaging medical interventions like most 'binary' trans-identified (and typically very vulnerable) people do.

The questions were so badly worded/misunderstood that Newham had the highest % of people identifying as a gender different to their birth sex. It was primarily due to English being a second language.

Edited to add a lot of languages do not have separate words for sex and gender so one word means both.

Newham also had a high % of Muslim’s, again making the results questionable

I've posted about this before.

If you don't identify as the gender that alines with your sex then by gender identities own rules you must be a trans person.

So as far as trans is concerned, trans must include gender critical people that say they are not "cis".

It is why clear definitions are so important.

I suspect that is why so many people didn't specify a gender, but I would assume that the people who identified as non-binary or another gender did understand the question.