Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8

629 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 10/07/2026 10:44

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:33

From TT:

J: And we agreed exchange written subs by 20/1/2027. I think that's everything?
J: Thank you everyone. Let's hope it's cooler when we reconvene. And thank you Miss Airs for your understanding re your birthday, it's appreciated.

[HEARING ENDS}

fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:32

From TT:

J: We have checked all those dates and all are convenient and in diary.
J 4 days beginning 14th -
NC: We have been discussing - can we ask for 5 instead?
J: Indeed. 5 days from 14/12

J: Then 1 day 25/1 for oral submissions, then we will take 27/1-29/1 for deliberations. We will write out a case management order with all this.

NC: Just to remind, EDW can't do 18th so AL has kindly agreed to interpose EDW earlier in the week
AL: If tribunal agrees.
J: OK we will put EDW after CA for now.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/07/2026 14:32

MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 14:29

Then I hope ST loses.

Show quote history

Maybe HH is running down the clock so that EDW runs out of money and SEEN can no longer intervene?

I really think HHs conduct here is in question - I hope that the judge does consider a cost order when ST loses.

MarieDeGournay · 10/07/2026 14:31

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/07/2026 14:18

Did @MarieDeGournay ever get her T-shirt?

And yes, I am that far behind.

Lovely, thank you, I now have 2 in my wardrobe.
And thank you for portraying me in my punk angel manifestation!

MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 14:29

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/07/2026 14:28

This all really confirms for me that this is lawfare funded by someone with deep pockets.

It explains why ST won't settle
It explains why HH is still flogging that poor long dead horse - I'm sure she's aware of the weakness of her case, I imagine she has advised ST of this but ST will be insisting that she continue.

Then I hope ST loses.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/07/2026 14:28

This all really confirms for me that this is lawfare funded by someone with deep pockets.

It explains why ST won't settle
It explains why HH is still flogging that poor long dead horse - I'm sure she's aware of the weakness of her case, I imagine she has advised ST of this but ST will be insisting that she continue.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 10/07/2026 14:25

BettyBooper · 10/07/2026 14:15

They're never restarting on CA's birthday?

Show quote history

TBF, she may prefer to get it over and done with and be able to enjoy her birthday evening free of the concern about what the next day would bring.

anyolddinosaur · 10/07/2026 14:24

A reminder that Elspeth needed more seeds for her garden even before the extra time - and expense.

Boiledbeetle · 10/07/2026 14:23

Idly wonders if the delay will cause ST to take 6 months off sick.

murasaki · 10/07/2026 14:22

While I feel sorry for CA, who has been fantastic, and deserves to enjoy her retirement away from this, my main concern is for Elspeth. What an absolute trauma for her all this waiting.

fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:20

If CA is really being left on oath for many months (?) what does that mean for her? She can't discuss her evidence, which probably means in effect, she can't discuss the case. She could, however, discover FWR if she hasn't already (welcome, CA, and we understand that you can't say anything ;-) - eta ah, or is she also not allowed to read about the case?), read everything Legal Feminist has ever written, etc. - correct?

Boiledbeetle · 10/07/2026 14:20

Shedmistress · 10/07/2026 14:19

This isn't even farcical any more. It is utter lunacy.

.

Losing My Mind GIF
MyrtleLion · 10/07/2026 14:19

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/07/2026 14:18

Did @MarieDeGournay ever get her T-shirt?

And yes, I am that far behind.

She did, bout your version is superior. Chef’s kiss.

Shedmistress · 10/07/2026 14:19

This isn't even farcical any more. It is utter lunacy.

Boiledbeetle · 10/07/2026 14:18

anyolddinosaur · 10/07/2026 14:17

CA under oath for months and has to be cross examined by Naomi on her birthday.

If Tink did not peak CA than HH must surely have done so!

To be fair a lot of us would pay good money to spend our birthday being the sole focus of Naomi.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/07/2026 14:18

Did @MarieDeGournay ever get her T-shirt?

And yes, I am that far behind.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:18

From TT:

J: Written subs 20/1 then; and we will say no written replies, address in oral. We will allow each of the three of you 2 hours for oral subs then.

J: Is that everything?
[all agree to this]
J: OK we will break while we go and check those dates for room availability etc - take 10 minutes while we do so.

[BREAK]

anyolddinosaur · 10/07/2026 14:17

CA under oath for months and has to be cross examined by Naomi on her birthday.

If Tink did not peak CA than HH must surely have done so!

fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:17

From TT:

J: So written submissions - allow for Christmas etc - can we say 15th January?
[some diary-checking etc going on]
AL: I have a 5 day trial early Jan
HH: So do I - could we say 20th?
AL: If that was a problem we could have oral later?

J: 20th would work?
AL: Or we have oral subs the 2/2 instead?
[I think someone said that day isn't possible]

Boiledbeetle · 10/07/2026 14:15

BettyBooper · 10/07/2026 14:15

They're never restarting on CA's birthday?

Show quote history

Yep

anyolddinosaur · 10/07/2026 14:15

Anyone like to work out how much of the 3 weeks has been spent on the claimants case, how much the respondent and how much Naomi? My guess is something like 2 weeks, 4 days and one.

BettyBooper · 10/07/2026 14:15

fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:13

From TT:

J: And EDW?
HH: Say a day?
AL: let's say 3 hours?
J: So then re-exam and Qs, let's say an hour. OK, so, that's about right for 4 days.

NC: I'm sorry to interrupt, but, EDW cannot do 18th Dec - it's the only day she can't that week.
J: So we could interpose ...
AL: Or revert to 14th - CA is happy with that?
J: Yes that is better - we will start 14th

They're never restarting on CA's birthday?

fanOfBen · 10/07/2026 14:13

From TT:

J: And EDW?
HH: Say a day?
AL: let's say 3 hours?
J: So then re-exam and Qs, let's say an hour. OK, so, that's about right for 4 days.

NC: I'm sorry to interrupt, but, EDW cannot do 18th Dec - it's the only day she can't that week.
J: So we could interpose ...
AL: Or revert to 14th - CA is happy with that?
J: Yes that is better - we will start 14th

Boiledbeetle · 10/07/2026 14:13

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

It's not complex. Civil service followed the law whilst bending over backwards for claimant. Claimant is still unhappy because civil service followed law.

BeKindWisely · 10/07/2026 14:12

MyAmpleSheep · 10/07/2026 12:47

We did everything we could to foster good relations but when we have one side that says only way forward is to disband SEEN and silence GC voices difficult to move on from there

I think this is an example of the danger of cross examining an intelligent, eloquent and well-informed witness when you have a weak case. They come up with neat and tidy demolitions of everything you've been trying to persuade the panel about for the last few days.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Judge wrote that down verbatim and quotes it back in the judgment.

Show quote history

This. Yes.
CA is fantastic!