Continuation of Polypostwonder thread

“Its use upon me does not prevent anyone else from using the word for you or any other woman. I have no control over their use of the word.”

This is more passiveness that is directly contradicting what is happening.

You DO have control because you can disclose to people that you are male. You made choices but you are still a male person. Even if you simply allow everyone to believe what they want about you or you have used female language for yourself when you are not female, your failure to correct the situation in the first place is the cause of this situation you are claiming you have no control over.

Expanding to my personal belief that 'woman' can also include some trans women. I acknowledge that this is also different than your belief, but I doubt my belief affects you personally or has an impact on the billions of other women in the world.

How many more times can we explain it to you ?

Your denial is irrelevant as the negative impact has indeed happened.

It is absurd to deny the negative impact in the face of so much pushback and now many court cases and published negative incidents. That it is not likely that you, personally, have been responsible for those incidents, it is the outcome of the many others who, similar to you, acquired the female language and then acted as if they had every right to act as if their subjective reality was every other person’s material reality when that subjective reality has no basis in material reality.

We have explained it to you for months what the collective negative impact to all female people and to individuals. Even to ourselves.

Forcibly acquiring female language and using it for yourself, even you simply accepting the outcome of what is essentially a form of passive force, has negative impacts for every female person.

Because in that action of acquisition, you are trying to force the female language to be rendered meaningless by including you.

Because in that action of acquisition and then using that acquired language to access female single sex provisions, you actively change those single sex provisions to be no longer single sex.

But so many of us have explained this to you for months. This is just rinse and repeat now.

“I don't name 'woman' in the sense that you are suggesting, it is used upon me.”

and

”The word has been used upon me since I transitioned decades ago.”

and

”My access and place in the world is determined by the word as it has been since I was a teen. My life makes sense through the word. I don't control anyone's use of the word. I am not provided the opportunity to force anyone to use any other word. I am unable to find any example of how the use of the word upon me alters the use of the word upon you.”

There is that passive force again.

No, YOU force it by your acquisition of it. You use it for yourself then claim that it is ‘used upon’ you.

This is just so fucking dishonest.

“I have no other culturally relevant word available to me that most accurately represents the cultural place I exist.”

I understand you were a child when you made choices about your future and perhaps the concept never occurred to you that you were attempting to forcibly acquire female language and causing harm. However, you are an adult now.

You made choices and those choices led to this situation. You then demand that everyone else subscribe to your personal subjective reality as if it is material reality, while actively denying that this is the outcome of your demand, either active demands or passive demands.

coming back to this

“I don't control anyone's use of the word. I am not provided the opportunity to force anyone to use any other word. I am unable to find any example of how the use of the word upon me alters the use of the word upon you.”

“I don't control anyone's use of the word.”

Yes. You do. Every single time you use the words for female people for yourself.

That is how language works.

”I am not provided the opportunity to force anyone to use any other word.”

And yet, your passive acquisition of female language does force others to use that language out of either politeness or in belief that you have portrayed yourself honestly as being materially female when you are not.

”I am unable to find any example of how the use of the word upon me alters the use of the word upon you.”

We have spent months telling you how your forced acquisition of language and the concept of being female harms us.

You have ignored us.

This is his passively taking consent as being given while dishonestly denying he is doing it.

He keeps denying that his actions assume consent and ignore anyone’s rejection of consernt. It is like saying consent is happening ‘to’ him rather than acknowledging it would not be happening at all if he respected female people’s needs one iota and didn’t make these claims that demanded (even passively demanded) that female people simply accept this claim.

There is disordered thinking behind that lack of ability to take responsibility for an individual’s own actions, even if those actions are determinedly forcing acceptance by quietly persisting in continuing to do what the individual wants to do.

All while constructing a subjective reality to suit that demanded acceptance when that acceptance is harmful to others.

I understand. It must be incredibly hard.

But the problem is that the path you took ultimately leads society to a place that is not good for anyone.

Not for women, not for men, not even for trans people.

We can't just link personality to sex and pretend that's ok because people with the wrong personality can just "transition"..It's limiting all of us and ultimately it's hurting "trans" people most of all.

Because it is trans people who have to bear the consequences in their medically compromised bodies, who carry the social load of having to constantly police that others are accepting your identity / right to be a man/woman despite your body, and who feel it as personal rejection and even fear when parts of society say no.

There has to be a better way than smooshing sex and gender together into one thing that doesn't really fit either of us properly.

I believe it most accurately and concisely conveys the facts of my life, from before I became adult. In that context, I believe I should be.

In any gender, I've had no control over how people see me, or treat me. It's not so much passive as it is coercive and restrictive.

I changed sex as a teen. It wasn't passive. HRT was involved. My body developed in a direction that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I'm not interested in discussing whether I had a choice or not. It isn't important. I don't believe most people would choose it, and they don't.

Culture has changed a lot since I transitioned, specifically around trans people. I would argue that any 'be kind' social acceptance efforts were outside of the control of trans people as much as the reinterpretation of the EA was last year. The only consistency is the placement of trans people within an already existing sex/gender. Whether that's by self-identification by some people, or social 'adoption.' I think non-binary people had made some slight progress in self-definition until more dominant social forces were 'exhausted' with cognitive load and have reverted to whatever makes sense to the person individually.

I do understand, I think. But I'm personally not prepared to sacrifice my life (and the life of my family) to ignore the effects of culture upon me for my entire adulthood. I know my life is not homogenous to all women, from birth. But there has been (and is, in other environments than gender critical spaces) a place for me for 40 years. It makes more sense to me and arguably others to remain here than to homogenise with trans people who aren't even in control over the definition of the phrase 'trans people.'

I didn't ask if you are, I asked if you believe you should be.

In the context of the impact that redefining womanhood has on female people, that is a meaningful distinction and one that you seem keen to avoid by portraying your social womanhood as something passively bestowed upon you rather than something you actively choose and seek.

So, I am keen to understand if this wasn't something that passively happened to you (something I actually don't accept BTW as per previous post aboit your choice to transition), would you actively pursue it?

Globally I am recognised legally and socially as a woman now. In the UK, I also believe I am legally and socially a woman regardless of interpretation of the EA2010 and GRA because a lack of any way to prove I was born in any form different than I've lived since before adulthood.

If the UK created a law that required everyone to take tests and it was prepared to redefine society by the results of those tests, I wouldn't have any option but to accept it, would I?

I don't believe I am lying. I don't believe everyone needs to know what my chromosomes are, how my body is organised to support gametes or what colour bracelet was placed on me when I was born.

I don't pretend. Yes, my life and development as a teen was interrupted and redirected somewhere different. I've lived since then and the closest socially relevant word I have available is 'woman.' It's not about beliefs, it's about relating sense about my life to others.

You're asking me, along with fewer than 1% of the population, who marginally maybe have something maybe in common with one another, to invent a replacement for one of the most entrenched tools of social control?

Yes.

Better that than entrench it further as you do today.

Better that than have fewer than 1% of the population expect that society rewrite the self knowledge of 50% because they can't face the sex they actually are.

But also no.

No I don't expect less than 1% of the population to do that alone.

I don't think you realise how much support you would have. All the GC voices that currently speak against you would stand with you for a start, because having gender entirely outside sex is where we also want to be.

So instead of trans people having to fight on two fronts, the traditionalists who believe gender has to be tied to sex and the GC feminists who don't want have gender linked to sex at all, you'd have just one front and more allies at your side.

I wish you would understand - we don't want you not to have the space to be you, we just want you to stop creating that space by squashing us.

I know we've just gone many messages about social 'gendery' stuff, but woman isn't solely about gender for me though, which seems to get lost. Personally, my initial motivation was embodiment away from physically growing into adulthood as a man. I had issues there. But yay me for avoiding that whole shit show.

About the quest for utopia, gender isn't an identity. It's a system that was created by and enforced culturally. You're asking me, along with fewer than 1% of the population, who marginally maybe have something maybe in common with one another, to invent a replacement for one of the most entrenched tools of social control? I'm all for doing away with gender. The various factions I've witnessed within trans space would never work toward anything in partnership.

I've worked towards making gender more irrelevant. I'm continuing to focus on this.

Do you believe you should be recognised legally and socially as a woman?

If society and the law said "no, we won't do that, women are simply adult human females and that does not include male people no matter how medically altered they may be or how they may present socially", would you accept that?

As you have always known, because it is just part of who you are.

You are very welcome, not that you were ever actually confused about your sex.

You know you are, and always will be, male.

Some TRA posters with their purposely outrageous word games and claims remind me of Colin the emotional vampire.

I'd like to add more, but even if I try and generalise about the motivations of any male who would come to FWR to gaslight the (mostly) females here in this way, I think the post would end up deleted. I'm not even sure this one will be left to stand, but it kind of sums it up for me.

Lying by omission is still lying.

You pretend you had womanhood thrust upon you because everyone assumes you are female, but that isn't true is it?

By your own telling, you transitioned as a child/teen.

So before the "everyone thinks I'm a wonan", there was a decision to transition because of how you felt inside.

That is the genesis here. You are in your mind a "woman" not because of how people treat you but because of your own beliefs about how female people feel.

Actually no, I'm not suggesting you call yourself "trans woman" at all.

I think that's actually the worst of both worlds.

It is still linking whatever it is you feel to the existence of female people which is the fundamental problem for women, and it's also reducing you by making you into a not-quite-something (a not-quite "woman") instead of recognising you and others like you as a fully realised something else.

So what I'm actually suggesting is that trans people invent a whole new terminology for Gender that allows the people we currently think of as trans women to be fully realised and recognised in their own right as separate from and nothing to do with being female. (And similarly for trans men, and enbies, and any other identies that arise of course, because unlike sex this new expression of humanity diversity can be as fluid and expansive as Genderists want to make it).

And it doesn't have to be limited to trans people either, because once it's nothing to do with sex, it's just another thing some people will have in common. So the women who today feel you do have something in common with them can still find that commonality under a new name, while still being women as well under the old.

It's expansive instead of regressive. It goes from being a zero sum game to win/win.

As has been explained. Thank you.

That's because you are literally male.

Because I'm not.

Everything I do on FWR is very male. It's the deal.

There is another word though, transwoman, which Poly seems to reject. Bit transphobic, that.

I very much have personal experience with 'woman' as it applies to more than half of the population. Not one person, government or organisation has ever needed to know what my chromosomes are, my internal organs look like, what gametes my body was organised to support, or the status of any SRY genes.

I live under the same language, law and cultural beliefs. I am not above it, nor do I control it.

Why don't you put effort into agitating for that then, instead of all this effort into trying to persuade the world that "woman" means more than it meaningfully can?