Continuation of Polypostwonder thread

And?

My puberty was different. Whether I disclose specific details or not doesn't change its affect on my body and how people treat me based on my body.

What on earth is female stage 5, have I achieved it yet?

Mid-puberty was well before tanner stage three.

ETA: Above is male... And for symmetry, concluded at female stage five.

Some people are late starters. Again, (and if true), not particularly special.

@FlirtsWithRhinos One for the book.

"Observably start to mature". Otherwise known as puberty. Used by certain trans identified males who don't like to acknowledge the p-word or its effects on them.

As people have told you before, changes would have been happening to your body that you will not have noticed or remembered. You just said you were in mid puberty.

Rubbish! Sex begins developing at the point of conception.

You've just admitted you went through puberty. You say you started taking oestrogen "mid-puberty".

What do you think puberty even is?

"almost immediately knocked my testosterone level to almost nothing"

Urm... I'm pretty sure someone would die if this were true, or at least be extremely, extremely unwell! I'm pretty sure @Helleofabore has a really helpful graphic for levels of testosterone that she normally has to break out when people try to say men with certain DSDs have testosterone "in the high female range", which funnily enough is also utter bullshit!

Everyone else I knew was well into puberty by the time I observably started to mature. Even my younger brother.

It isn't anything different than what I've said before. Nothing in the way of sex development happened to my body until after I began taking oestrogen.

At least you are now honest in saying you started estrogen MID PUBERTY.

Meaning you experienced partial if not full male puberty. Despite telling us months ago you did not have any male puberty at all despite being in your mid teens.

As I've stated previously, the oestrogen I took until it was withdrawn from the market in all forms but birth control (ethinyl estradiol) almost immediately knocked my testosterone level to almost nothing. Separate testosterone reduction was not required.

We are discussing children who have been or are undergoing puberty. They will be stronger, and faster, and anything-er more than someone of either sex who has not started puberty.

So you have nothing.

Yet the proof is there that male children have advantages even before puberty. This post is just you telling women what you want to be true.

Again. Male children enter puberty already having physical advantages that have been well documented now.

Any male person who then follows a female hormonal supplementation starts from a higher base of performance on average than female people do. Therefore if those male people follow a female hormonal development trajectory they will end up still having that male advantage.

YOU claim you went through an estrogen driven puberty ( while rejecting that you experienced any male puberty at all which is extremely doubtful considering you didn't have puberty blocked or testosterone suppressed). The study has looked at the advantages of children who have not gone through testosterone pubertal changes and determined that there are still advantages. There are about 5-10 similar studies all looking at children and the advantages that male children have over female children before the age of puberty.

As it is now quite well established that male children have advantages even before testosterone driven puberty, why would any male person then claim that they have not kept that that advantage when emulating female estrogen quantities during puberty.

Starting those female estrogen quantities while having an advantage already meaning that things such as strength will increase along at least the typical female rate but from a higher start base.

We are looking at averages. Female people never had that testosterone mini puberty effect. It means that on average, male people start from an average performance that is already higher than female people while then taking the same estrogen doses that female people produce.

That doesn't even then cover the early stages of puberty where a male person is experiencing advantages from early pubertal testosterone production. Nor does it cover when testosterone suppression has not be reliable.

People making claims that male people who have been on estrogen or have not gone through full testosterone puberty do not present a risk of physical harm to female people don't seem to have any evidence to back that up.

Do you have any evidence to back up that you have no physical advantage derived because you are male? If so, link it up. If not, please stop spreading misinformation based on your subjective belief.

I think there is a huge issue with fairness in adult sport. I don't believe anyone who underwent an uninterrupted male puberty should be competing in women's sport.

Having missed out on sport as a child and having had some exposure to it as an adult, I realise how important it is for socialisation and skill development. I believe it should be available to children, regardless of how they are born. I disagree with the assertion that placement of children should always follow gender critical sex beliefs.

I don't think anyone knows. No one has studied trans youth involved in sport. Sport wasn't available to me in school, I can't tell you an experience as I was withdrawn before I even started transition.

Having changed sex mid-puberty, from personal experience I can say the assumption that there is any perceivable 'male benefit' of strength from 'minipuberty' when compared to a fully realised normal male puberty or even female puberty is wild.

My strength markedly increased following the administration of oestrogen, as I gained height and weight; beyond my strength from whatever 'minipuberty' provided and whatever influence testosterone provided prior to starting HRT.

Cherry picking selected quotations out of context now.

Puberty blockers followed by cross sex hormones do not cause a person of one sex to go through opposite sex puberty, nor do they turn back the clock and reverse the physical advantages male children have during their pre-pubescence.

"Sex differences in adult athletic performance are driven by the 20-to 30-fold increase in testosterone production of male puberty"

Nothing in that study is examining the performance of trans youth who are undergoing (or have undergone) an HRT supported puberty.

The paper addressed "minipuberty" and the average performance of pre-pubertal boys and girls, but did not actually present measurements or the amount of overlap of those two cohorts.

I think I remember someone on FWR accusing me of possessing 162% of the punch power of a woman. That's preposterous.

If a male person has a physical advantage during childhood, without access to pubertal testosterone at all (and remember that a male child will start puberty often before puberty is blocked or cross sex hormones given), why would that advantage be retained even if that male child has an estogren driven puberty that then is emulating female skeletal and musculature development throughout puberty and not one moment of testosterone puberty?

Sorry, typing with a bandaged finger.

Why WOULDN'T that advantage be retained? is what was meant.

If a male person enters puberty emulating the hormonal quantities of female people with an advantage, Why WOULDN'T that physical advantage be retained by the end of that puberty?

HANDELSMAN STUDY ON PRE-PUBERTAL DIFFERENCES

A study pointing out that it could be effects from the mini puberty as an infant and/or muscle memory differences between male and female children.

The ontogeny of sex differences in exercise performance

https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/10/4/bvag042/8500320?login=false#googlevignette

David Handelsman and Grant Tomkinson
April 2026

Abstract

Sex differences in adult athletic performance are driven by the 20-to 30-fold increase in testosterone production of male puberty creating larger and stronger muscle, bone and cardiorespiratory functions, and higher hemoglobin creating male physical advantages in power sports, where strength, speed, or endurance determine success. Before puberty, boys also surpass girls in age-group records despite no difference in circulating testosterone over the decade from minipuberty to puberty. However, the relative magnitude of the prepubertal, relative to pubertal, sex differences in exercise performance remain uncertain.

To investigate the magnitude of these differences in a unitary dataset, this was a secondary analysis of a exercise performance of 85 347 healthy 9- to 17-year-old Australian schoolchildren between 1985 to 2009. Boys surpassed girls in 8 of 9 exercises excepting 1, a stretching exercise, in which girls surpassed boys. For each exercise the magnitude of the pubertal changes were much larger than those of prepubertal differences. These findings in normative tests extend previous studies of competitive age records of prepubertal children and compare the same tests over the pubertal transition.

These findings confirm that the quantitatively dominant sex differences in exercise performance are those of puberty. That at least 1 prepubertal exercise test is dominated by girls indicates that the prepubertal differences are more likely to be biological rather than sociological, related to boy's greater habitual play or exercise. It is postulated that these prepubertal sex differences may arise from the combination of androgen imprinting during minipuberty propagated by muscle memory.

Just to pull this out:

It is postulated that these prepubertal sex differences may arise from the combination of androgen imprinting during minipuberty propagated by muscle memory.

This is just one of the first studies that has started to evaluate non pubertal testosterone advantage.

If a male person has a physical advantage during childhood, without access to pubertal testosterone at all (and remember that a male child will start puberty often before puberty is blocked or cross sex hormones given), why would that advantage be retained even if that male child has an estogren driven puberty that then is emulating female skeletal and musculature development throughout puberty and not one moment of testosterone puberty?

And even a small physical advantage as shown in childhood IS A PHYSICAL ADVANTAGE.

There is no evidence that a male person with blocked puberty does not still retain genetic male physical advantages. It also requires puberty suppression to work fully which may not be the case.

It is why the IOC made a blanket ban on all male people with transgender identities from entering female sports events. If there was proof that puberty suppression did not allow male advantage to develop, there would have been a clause in the policy to that effect.

A male person with any physical advantage will pose additional risk to female people when they enter a female single sex provision.

"there is no sensible way of discussing this issue while women (some of whom, not necessarily on this forum, are becoming as verbally aggressive in their stance as many trans activities)"

I skipped over this earlier, but it's been really bugging me and seeing it quoted again made me want to ask @Imdunfer if she's seen the TERF is a slur website?
TERF is a slur | Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

Because really? Women are becoming as verbally aggressive as those male TRAs? Really?!

I'm not on twitter, instagram or ticktock but I highly doubt that GC women are threatening to rape anyone, let alone are calling for their decapitation, or hoping for them to die in a grease fire etc.

You cannot philosophise your way into being a woman.

Nor can you continue to make absurd statements about body size to try to convince anyone that you are a female person.

It is irrelevant what your body size is. You are male and you will have experienced partial male puberty despite your assertions otherwise. You also have male genetics which will develop your body as male regardless of the hormones you supplement.

You don't have to post on this forum if you feel you get 'senseless' replies. Many of us will keep replying regardless because this is a public forum and you choose to post misinformation that needs to be countered.