M&S Colchester claim mixed changing is ‘completely safe’ for women.

I don’t think it’s correct to say that all changing rooms will end up mixed sex. The Supreme Court judgment made it clear that there is no priority of one protected characteristic over others. That being the case, you have to consider the needs and particular issues of all groups.

When it comes to women, one issue that has been repeatedly taken into account is their reasonable need for privacy from the opposite sex and their safety too, particularly as there is evidence that they are more vulnerable to voyeurism and abuse in mixed sex environments than men, for example That being the case, failure to provide single sex facilities may be discriminatory.

On the PR front too, it’s not a good look for national institutions like M&S.

I dont understand your logic, by pointing out that men use women changing rooms, the inevitable solutions will be mixed sex changing?

So if we don't complain, we have mixed sex changing, if we do, we get mixed sex changing?

There are many posts on X like this with posters describing stores they have visited. The Baroness asks for evidence.
Maybe some mumsnetters have such evidence.....

https://x.com/i/status/2067499529364963614

Providers have the choice of trans-exclusive single sex changing rooms with a "third space" or simply go for mixed sex. The latter is the most straightforward as it doesn't enable challenging people they believe are transgender which is a discrimination grey area. M&S just need to change their signs, and they are done.

But mixed sex only facilities are highly likely to constitute indirect discrimination against women.

Indirect discrimination is defined as a policy, rule, or practice that applies to everyone but has a disproportionately negative effect on individuals with a protected characteristic, such as sex.

What’s your solution for changing rooms and toilets in terms of design?

Well, that would at least have the virtue of honesty.

No, as long as they have individual, self-contained lockable units.

I had understood that mixed sex could be offered as well as, not instead of single sex provision, unless the mixed sex was all individual, lockable, self-contained cubicles.

Hate to spoil a 'own teh terfs' moment, but it's not just signs.

You are absolutely correct. M&S plus lots of other providers might choose unisex for changing rooms. Many already have. But it’s been done by stealth and increasingly people will notice. Some retailers will realise they can differentiate by having single sex spaces…

As time goes by and the disadvantages might rack up against women, press stories will increase, women might choose to shop in store less or choose retailers who provide SSS. They’ll buy less. Which is unfortunate for retailers as women (esp with families) are the main drivers of retail spending.

I have already been thinking that I’d shift to buying vintage and second hand because of all this nonsense from retailers. If they don’t respect me then I’ll avoid spending my money with them.

I suppose eventually M&S might stop trading clothes - they’re already in trouble on that side of the business. This might be a bit sad but ultimately better for the planet when we stop buying crap we don’t need. I will probably miss Wilco more if I’m honest.

Back in the 1990s the outcry about mixed sex spaces in the 1960s-1970s in the name of progress in the NHS caused huge outcry - people really hate it. In time i predict that’s the sentiment that will emerge again …

If men are being allowed to change in the same space as women, some may take the opportunity to install hidden cameras in the knowledge that the room will be used by women. This may sound far fetched but there are documented cases of these cameras being discovered

Entirely enclosed and private changing rooms make it much easier to install this sort of equipment - once you've closed the door you can get up to whatever you want. Want to stand on a chair and lift up a few ceiling tiles? - no problem. Want to blutack a camera to the underside of the bench? - no problem. Want to stick a camera disguised as a wall socket to the skirting board? - no problem

Making changing rooms mixed sex puts women at greater risk than single sex equivalents. A male predator wondering into a women's single sex changing room is likely to be challenged, the same man has free reign in a mixed sex facility.

Women are disadvantaged by mixed sex facilities and likely more so if the facilities are floor to ceiling private rooms.

Describe these in more detail as to how you think they should be designed.

edit: because if it’s how I think you are imagining them, they are discriminatory.

Being simplistic here , can’t they just have single cubicles with a locked door that any sex can use ? Surely that’s the simple answer?

Also this woman filming did the same to staff at Colchester rail station , she also told
staff to challenge a trans prison using female toilets.

Is this woman a trouble maker ? How is it she finds so many trans people around ? I just go to a changing room , shut the door and try on the clothes. No drama involved at all.

It’s the poor retail staff who have to try and deal with whatever rules are made. Male staff feel uncomfortable getting involved, why should it be their problem to deal with ?

Depends if there are gaps in walls and doors, and if staff are around to notice if anyone has been in a cubicle for a significant length of time and may be in danger.

Theres different designs for mixed sex and single sex use. Its not always possible to change the signs snd be fit for purpose.

When toilets are permitted door gaps in regulations, for ventilation, cleaning and washing down the whole area, supervision in emergencies and preventing misuse (sex, drugs, vandalism) it is because they are in a single sex environment. These are all for health and safety so the occupant isn’t enclosed in a private space in a public area.

A lot of these principles can be applied to changing rooms too.

@andy2026 you are clearly being simplistic. Women and girls are 9 times more likely to be assaulted in mixed sex spaces. Men can push us in to lockable cubicles. They give the illusion of being safe while being very dangerous.

But I'm glad you seem to have concern for retail staff. Just imagine how the poor women at M&S feel when a man comes in for a bra fitting and they have to go along with his delusion?

The fact is that men have completely different chests and shoulders to women. Even if men take estrogen, they can't grow breasts like women because they don't have the same Cooper's ligaments. Men need specialist bras for their wide chests and shoulders and droopy moobs.

So if a man who calls himself trans is bra shopping in M&S it's almost definitely just for his masturbatory fantasy. He wants the experience, not the items. And those poor women have to be an unwitting part of those men's fetish. Do you think that's ok?

I have just had a call from bank security. When I asked politely please remove this number from this scam, I was told that he would do so if I sucked his cock first.
This is what men don’t get.

Men don’t get why women don’t want men in women’s changing rooms either.

This.

There's not a woman alive who doesn't realise that if she doesn't comply in even the smallest way with what a man says, if he thinks he can get away with it, he'll have a go. And it's almost always sexual, or violent.

@andy2026

How is it she finds so many trans people around ?

Assume you’re male, the reason women notice them around and you don’t is

• They aren’t significantly taller and bigger than you, you’d notice men the size of Mike Tyson or Andre the Giant if they were around you, that can be the size difference between normal women and TW
• They aren’t trying to use spaces where you take your underwear off so are vulnerable

The trans identified men are using women’s spaces and threatening women. They are noticeable because they are bigger than us, more aggressive and don’t look like us. I realised one person was trans from behind in a public toilet because he was taking up so much communal space washing his hands. Clothing was a ladies coat that concealed body shape, height was well within range for tall woman, but the way he used a shared space was different, a man would be unlikely to notice that difference even in a mixed sex space because it isn’t different to you.

The trans identified women are smaller than you, not aggressive and blend into the background more, if they are using your toilets they aren’t a threat to you so you don’t notice them.

Trans women have tits. They buy for exactly the same reasons cis women do - mostly, just to keep the girls level.

Attitudes like this are the reason trans people are so regularly subjected to street violence.

Trans women have normal lives, and they require clothes. That's it.

Accusing minorities of being hypersexual - existing for sex and having nothing else in their lives - is an age-old trope which encourages dehumanisation and violence.

Great, now i have a mental image of izzards wonky 'girls'.

'tits'. 'the girls'.

Geezo.

Men are not a minority.

Idk about 'hypersexual'. It may partly explain why men commit 99% of all sex attacks, but I personally think there's also an element of misogyny involved.

What's stopping them try on bras in the mens changing room?

How is saying "No respect our spaces and use your own" making them unable to live exactly? They will still be alive in the men's changing rooms.

Oooh like when TRA say women deserve to be raped, murdered or beaten for saying men or not women? That kind of dehumanisation and violence.

see this is where clothing manufacturers could make a killing. Ranges of bras etc especially for men. I mean it’s benefit men with moobs and men with a trans identity. Whole new market!!!