What is in the water this week?! Glinner now making a mockery of the cause

From Nick Wallis’s tweets, this is what Glinner’s lawyer has said about the complainant (C) Sophia Brooks (SB) (aka Tarquin) in the BCA:

"in short my submissions are as follows. it is artificial to disaggregate the events of 19 Oct 2024 from the history of C's conduct towards and hostility towards GC campaigners. SB's credibility is at the heart of your decisions and the material on which we seek to rely will be of assistance to you in understanding the depth and longevity of his hostility and demonstrate we say why he will not be fettered by the need to be truthful before this court about the material events."

Which is a long winded way of saying Tarquin has been hostile for years and doesn’t tell the truth.

It’s for when you want to introduce evidence about the bad character of a person during a criminal trial. It’s a way of showing that someone is not credible or has been involved in misconduct.

It's a thing you can do in criminal proceedings, where you can introduce evidence about a defendant's or witness's past conduct, if you can prove relevance. In a defendant's case, it might be showing they have a propensity to commit similar crimes. In a witness's case, it might be showing that they're a shocking liar and that the court might draw some conclusions about their credibility.

What’s a

Bad Character Application?

Thanks

There's sufficient evidence in the public domain to establish that Neil Gaiman is an abusive creep.

The fact that he hasn't (yet) been convicted of anything doesn't mean the BBC is obliged to keep paying him shedloads of money for adaptations of his books.

This is not the same thing as women losing their jobs for expressing an unfashionable opinion.

Did Maya Forstatter and Sandie Peggie's careers worry you? That's the thing about justice. It needs to belong to people you don't like as well as you do.

Me? I'm old fashioned. I believe in evidence before conviction.

"Semenya’s personal bests are slower than the English Schoolboys records for 15/16 years old."

Very interesting. OTOH, if Semenya actually had run like a top rank male, many people would have woken up earlier to the fact that there was a male person with male advantages in the race.

Apparently, highlighting this is bullying. To use the catastrophising language of that PP, perhaps we should all have just Shut The Fuck Up and let these male athletes continue to take opportunities away from female people.

Isn't it amazing that we are told that

"Throughout history, women (particularly those of colour and lesbians) have suffered this nonsense."

yet that poster cannot reconcile the fact that in shutting down discussion they are advocating to perpetuate the very loss of opportunity for "women (particularly those of colour and lesbians)".

Just like the poster leverages a group of male people with medical conditions to frame women discussing individual cases where female people have been subjected to unfair and unsafe conditions of competition, they are also trying to leverage women who have suffered oppression due to racism and homophobia. Yet, in leveraging those women, has completely fucking missed the point that the very people this poster is advocating for are continuing the oppression cycle through unfair and unsafe sporting conditions.

The more people try to justify their attempts at framing women's discussions as being hateful, the more some people will show that it is them who is not only hateful in their own way, but ill informed too. All because, women won't shut the fuck up and just let some male people do what they want when their decisions actively harm female people.

Semenya is genetically male - Semenya has 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5ARD) which is a DSD of male people. Semenya has internal testes, produces and is sensitive to testosterone and went through male puberty.

As has been said ALL ALONG, it is very likely that Khelif has the same DSD - it’s in the public sphere that Khelif has XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone.

These are not trans individuals, so there can be no ‘hatred of trans people’. They will both know that they are male (having undergone a male puberty) and yet they (and others with the same DSD) were willing to take prizes and opportunities from actual women - including black women, disadvataged women and lesbian women.

Khelif refused to take the cheek swab test so failed to appear at last year’s Eindhoven Box Cup, despite being the poster child for the event. Why would that be do you think?

People (many of them women) have been campaigning for years against the unfair advantage that these mediocre males have exerted over women in the female category at elite level. Semenya’s personal bests are slower than the English Schoolboys records for 15/16 years old.

SV laid out all the connections between the TRAs very well.

But honestly, if you haven't been following closely, it must sound utterly insane.

Wings over Scotland has written a lengthy piece about the activities of Lyndsay Watson.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/how-to-get-away-with-crimes/

Link to Nick Wallis account of what is happening in the trial (he is providing a 'tribunal tweets' type commentary)

https://x.com/nickwallis/status/2049787379091718559

GL's appeal against SB re the phone is happening today. Nick Wallis is live tweeting.

Sarah Vine has put forward a Bad Character Application re SB. NW has got hold of the application and has tweeted it out. Very interesting and demonstrates all the connections to Lyndsay Watson etc all.

Just in case anyone was interested!

"She has a vagina and breasts."

This is also another misrepresentation.

Having a vagina and breasts is not what actually defines who is female, however, all female people have or would have had a vagina if their bodies development followed the expected pathways.

The only real body part that is relevant as to whether a person is male or female is those which produce the gametes, either small or large gametes, as a human body is tested as to which category their body was formed to produce. Even if that body does not produce or has never produced or is producing those large or small gametes.

So, a male person with testes, even if they are under developed and internal is a male person. They do not have a body formed around the production of large gametes.

If posters are going to make statements about what they believe other people think, perhaps they should show some understanding in what those people understand rather than making misrepresentations. All it shows is either a determination to misrepresent, or that the statement maker has limited understanding of what they are referring to.

Oh god this and the Biggus Tittus thread has given me the mental image of ZP wearing those huge plastic norks but with hypo swirls on them...

Like this gif, but boobs. And on Zack.

Correction: There is no evidence at all in the public sphere that Khelif has a vagina

READER'S NOTE:

There is no evidence at all that Khelif has a vagina (although a blind cavity may sometimes be observed in some male people who have this DSD) and no evidence that Khelif has breasts.

Khelif is not transgender, and people who have read enough about 5ARD would not make that assumption. Either way, Khelif has been very clear that he does not consider himself as being transgender.

"This is a trick as old as time: women have always been made to fear being called masculine, because it removes theoretical protections against male violence."

Khelif is a male boxer and is punching female boxers with at least 160% greater punch power than a female boxer delivers.

Khelif is 'masculine' because he has been through male puberty as has been accessed by at least one expert panel and his DSD has been noted now by at least 2 endocrinologists and 1 other medical expert.

Semenya has been proven in court to have the same DSD that Khelif has. That is 5ARD which is a medical condition that only impacts on male people. At the CAS in Switzerland, evidence was presented that Semenya has 5ARD. This is no longer denied by Semenya either who has declared having testicles doesn't make him less of a woman. Well, yes, for competing in the Olympics, it certainly does.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536

So when some posters frame legitimate arguments about male people competing in female sports categories as 'bullying' and then misrepresents the arguments as being 'hatred for trans people', it is important to look further and understand another dynamic that is happening.

This other dynamic is rather concerning. Some people in the past have politically leveraged a group of male athletes to support transgender rights activism. They have politicised a group of male athlete's medical condition to achieve political aims for a group of male people who are not likely at all to have that condition.

Such as when some posters might frame their accusations of hate and bullying about discussions of male athletes with DSDs, who have been tested and know that they are male athletes with DSDs, yet they choose to compete in female sports events, as being discussions involving trans people.

Those people who have leveraged a group of male people with medical conditions to then demonise and vilify female people. It can be said to be rather offensive to leverage a group's medical conditions that is unrelated to transgender identities, yet, it happens.

Just to recap, this is the latest news about Khelif, but there is a lot of information on MN FWR about Khelif as it gets reported.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5486573-imane-khelif-confirms-she-has-the-sry-gene?page=1

Here is the OIC statement:

https://www.olympics.com/ioc/news/international-olympic-committee-announces-new-policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-women-s-category-in-olympic-sport

here is the policy

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/International-Olympic-Committee/EB/policy/policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-category-english.pdf

This is the OIC findings about the Magnitude of Advantage:

At the elite level, the magnitude of the Male performance advantage is different depending on the sport or event:
o There is a 10-12 per cent Male performance advantage in most running and swimming events.
o There is a 20+ per cent Male performance advantage in most throwing and jumping events.
o The Male performance advantage can be greater than 100 per cent in events that involve explosive power, e.g. in collision, lifting and punching sports.

The Male performance advantage can be greater than 100 per cent in events that involve explosive power, e.g. in collision, lifting and punching sports.

Punching sports - can be greater than 100% in advantage.

And yet, apparently, discussing the violence in the ring against female athletes by a male athlete who has made a conscious choice to punch female athletes, often in the face as seen at the olympics, is described as bullying by some uninformed people. I call that a misinformed attempt to silence legitimate discussion.

She's a woman, raised in a country where it's illegal to be trans, who fights in shorts in front of a TV audience.

She has a vagina and breasts. By terf logic, that makes her female.

Calling her a man is tactical. It's done so that anything can be said about her. This is a trick as old as time: women have always been made to fear being called masculine, because it removes theoretical protections against male violence.

Throughout history, women (particularly those of colour and lesbians) have suffered this nonsense.

If it was genuinely about her having a DSD, then terfs would say that and respect her. They'd campaign for women with DSDs to be treated differently, but with respect.

Instead, you pile on her, Semenya and others and accuse them of being evil violent men. It's misogynistic nonsense - and it's bullying. All.of it rooted in hatred for trans people.

Khelif being a proud Muslim woman who doesn't need the pity of Western women is a factor as well.

Shame on everyone who enjoys bullying her and calls it activism.

Eight.

Women.

Many of them prepared to go public, despite knowing what happens to women who do that.

He deserves to lose everything imo, and I am so grateful to them. They've likely saved other women.

It's so difficult get abusers convicted, so we have to reduce their power in other ways.

Sure, but I haven’t mentioned it, so I don’t see the need for the all-caps response to me.

🤣🤣

Zack and the his hypno tits

He's at the end of the pier all week

So what is it people don't want us to talk about with all this what about Trump? What about parkrun? I reckon it's Zack and the his hypno tits. Who is after all a thoroughly worthy target of comedy.

Exactly. The ALLEGATIONS said all those things. Innocent until proved guilty says they are allegations and the police have said no crime committed. If you've got evidence to the contrary, then I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

READER'S NOTE:

Imane Khelif is a male person with a DSD, a difference in sex development. It has been confirmed by different agencies that he is male with typical male puberty development. It has been leaked but not yet confirmed that the specific DSD that Khelif has is 5ARD.

This is the latest thread about Khelif

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5486573-imane-khelif-confirms-she-has-the-sry-gene?page=1

However, there is plenty of information contained in numerous threads across MN about this boxer. Khelif is male and it is partly due to his inclusion in the last Olympics that the IOC has now updated their policy for access into the female sports categories to fully exclude athletes with male DSDs that undergo male pubertal development, including those with 5ARD.

The 'way terms have treated' Khelif has been to campaign to remove all male people with male pubertal advantages from female sports categories. This has required extensive effort in combatting misinformation spread by posters declaring that Khelif was a female athlete.

Of course, male athletes who have gone through male puberty have physical advantages that are not available to female people. Here is a thread with links to many studies and papers on this topic.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=6&reply=151839994

Incidentally, it is because of these studies that we understand that male people who have either eliminated or suppressed the testosterone yet have gone through any part of male puberty have considerable strength advantages over female people.

This is part of the risk assessment for excluding ALL male people from the female single sex provisions on a safeguarding basis. From prisons, to toilets and to sports as well.

See the post from @Firetreev (this thread), and other posts (passim).

What is it with the gender critical to far right pipeline? It's what made me stop engaging with a lot of the gender critical community. I agree with a lot of what they have to say ragarding sex and gender. However, seeing how many went off the deep end and started spouting racist and far right views too made me walk away. It makes me question who's funding the fight and what are their real motivations. Probably not protecting the rights of women and girls.