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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4

684 replies

ickky · 24/10/2025 09:14

The Tribunal has now finished and we await the judgement.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Kelly vs Leonardo UK Ltd

Tribunal will consider workplace toilet provision

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Keeptoiletssafe · 08/12/2025 14:10

Not my idea of fun. It made me laugh as it was in the opening scene of Daddy Issues too and Rivals. Can’t get away from toilets!

SwirlyGates · 08/12/2025 14:07

@Keeptoiletssafe abuse in plane toilets? They're the size of a toenail! I'm not disbelieving what you say, but these people must be either small or bendy, or both. Confused

Keeptoiletssafe · 08/12/2025 13:17

There’s quite a lot of information about public toilets closing and why. It boils down to safety concerns and economics of repairing and cleaning up misuse.

The Sexual Offences Act did not stop people having sex in toilets. In fact, toilets still get a reputation and people still organise online to meet there which causes toilets to be shut down for ‘lewd’ behaviour. Even in 2008 The Provision of Public Toilets this was noted. It was also noted that ‘loos of the year’ still get targeted for sex. So do plane toilets, which is the only incident (but not in UK) I know of a woman charged with sexual offence (teacher with a pupil on a school trip). You have to really research a lot to find that though. Most incidents are of men abusing children and women in plane toilets. The Act didn’t stop voyeurism either and now we have hidden cameras, enclosing toilets to stop voyeurism is useless. In 2008, there was much debate about private unisex toilets but it was recognised it was not advantageous for women.

I believe the answer is to make toilets more open but have gaps that are around a kitchen kickboard height at the floor-door and the partitions/door be around 2m tall, then space to the ceiling. Tall ceilings are good. Natural light is good so you are not reliant on arrival lights if the electricity goes off. We should be having proper experiments to analyse the optimum design.

The two transactivist Americans that have been championing the rise of private gender neutral toilets and calling it a social justice movement have backgrounds in studying cruising in men’s public toilets and queer studies. There’s not a female insight. Some of their earlier papers are eye-opening. They have not done any health and safety assessments that I know of, and (as of April 2024 when he admitted it) no analysis on the toilets they have put in schools or public buildings.

In the U.K. recently there are some women at universities that have been looking at toilets but they are not from a scientific, architectural or medical background. They wrote a paper on women’s safety in toilets but it was for transwomen, they didn’t look at biological women and their physical safety. The same group joined a letter writing campaign with Stonewall for document T. There was a lot of people going on about safety, and 2/3 quoting a report Stonewall did where, looking at it completely objectively, a man got shouted at then pushed out of the ladies by two women. There’s no realisation about the design consequences of making toilets unisex/gender-neutral/universal even though there were so many promoting them.

Going back to this case, in absolute terms of health and safety, of course single sex toilet designs are going to be healthier and safer than unisex, especially for women. For exactly the same reasons (enclosed, mix-sex), it is why I have found disabled toilets are the locations of misuse, assaults and deaths.

The judge has brought aspects of health and safety up in her judgement so the appeal can mention this. There are times when we have to have unisex toilets but, as Doc T says, only after the regs for single sex toilets have been satisfied.

Also note I am being more NC and using correct men and women definitions in the above. That’s common sense too when talking about toilets as the behaviour is so dependent on what sex you are.

Peregrina · 08/12/2025 07:55

They say that the 700 public conveniences which have closed have been repurposed. They don't say how many Ladies/Gents have been turned into unisex while still keeping urinals.

So we are back where we started it seems.

Keeptoiletssafe · 08/12/2025 00:00

Apologies - I was too slow looking through my files 😅

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 23:59

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 07/12/2025 23:01

The three flower like structures (two complete circles and one half circle) along the center line of the gents may be circular basins where six people can use the facility at the same time

No, I think it’s like this beautiful one:

https://thecoracle.com/public-toilets-rothesay-bute-scotland/

Note the women didn’t get toilets til the 1990s. Nearly 100 years later than the men I think.

Rothesay victorian public toilets

The Coracle explores the beautiful world of Victorian public toilets

https://thecoracle.com/public-toilets-rothesay-bute-scotland/

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 07/12/2025 23:15

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/12/2025 23:06

Or they may be circular urinals.

I stand corrected - circular urinals it likely is

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4
thirdfiddle · 07/12/2025 23:09

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 07/12/2025 23:01

The three flower like structures (two complete circles and one half circle) along the center line of the gents may be circular basins where six people can use the facility at the same time

My first thought was those basins like in one of the Harry Potter films. But then what would the two basins shut behind a door be for?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/12/2025 23:06

Or they may be circular urinals.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 07/12/2025 23:01

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 18:35

Well…
the lav on certain historical diagrams I look at was actually the sinks. Let’s see if this will load now. It’s some of the first women’s toilets! Hurrah! We still didn’t get as many as the men but we had an attendant and many more sinks per toilet than the men (cos we use them).

I believe the swirls in the men’s are probably more urinals. So the men had 1 attendant, 12 toilets, 28 urinals and 2 sinks. The women had 1 attendant, 5 toilets, 2 sinks.

Nearly 120 years ago. More separate women’s toilets than Leonardos though.

The three flower like structures (two complete circles and one half circle) along the center line of the gents may be circular basins where six people can use the facility at the same time

NebulousSupportPostcard · 07/12/2025 21:57

Who is it? Is it someone well-known?

Boiledbeetle · 07/12/2025 21:26

Seriestwo · 07/12/2025 20:42

That person’s speech and mannerisms are very like Helen Webberly’s.

I bet he doesn't sound anywhere near as softly spoken, and look at me trying to be all rational, when riled up.

Seriestwo · 07/12/2025 20:42

That person’s speech and mannerisms are very like Helen Webberly’s.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 07/12/2025 20:42

And with comments for those not on twix
https://nitter.net/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1997611668445299172

NebulousSupportPostcard · 07/12/2025 20:26

Video from LGBT Foundation posted on twiiter: citing Judge Michelle Sutherland's decision in Kelly vs Leonardo UK and recommending that orgainisations do not change their policies on Trans inclusion after the Supreme Court ruling.

(LGBT Foundation provided training last year for Fidra charity, where Judge Michelle Sutherland is Trustee with responsibility for oversight of Operations and HR)

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1997611668445299172?s=20

Barry Wall (@HeadWarriorTWM) on X

Good God. The LGBT Foundation recommending that people do not change their policies on Trans after the supreme court ruling. How can they do this? How does it affect their charitable status? @ChtyCommission @SexMattersOrg @michaelpforan @lega...

https://x.com/HeadWarriorTWM/status/1997611668445299172?s=20

NebulousSupportPostcard · 07/12/2025 20:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/12/2025 19:47

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 18:35

Well…
the lav on certain historical diagrams I look at was actually the sinks. Let’s see if this will load now. It’s some of the first women’s toilets! Hurrah! We still didn’t get as many as the men but we had an attendant and many more sinks per toilet than the men (cos we use them).

I believe the swirls in the men’s are probably more urinals. So the men had 1 attendant, 12 toilets, 28 urinals and 2 sinks. The women had 1 attendant, 5 toilets, 2 sinks.

Nearly 120 years ago. More separate women’s toilets than Leonardos though.

Not only do the men have a lower proportion of washbasins in that diagram, they're shut away in a separate room. Clearly not intended for routine use by every visitor.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 07/12/2025 19:36

spannasaurus · 07/12/2025 19:07

According to plumbing manufacturers international lav would be an abbreviation for basins

While sometimes used by the general public to mean a bathroom or washroom, the plumbing industry uses lavatory to mean a bathroom washbowl or basin permanently installed with running water. The plumbing industry uses the term "sink" in reference to kitchen sinks

'Lavabo' is bathroom sink in French, rather than 'bassin' which is more generic sink.

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 19:34

It’s so difficult keeping up with the differences in conveniences, facilities, lavatories and restrooms, privies, bathrooms, different legislation and regulation in schools and the different countries of the U.K. There are so many variations of standards which, I believe, were started by a man in a pub.

spannasaurus · 07/12/2025 19:07

According to plumbing manufacturers international lav would be an abbreviation for basins

While sometimes used by the general public to mean a bathroom or washroom, the plumbing industry uses lavatory to mean a bathroom washbowl or basin permanently installed with running water. The plumbing industry uses the term "sink" in reference to kitchen sinks

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 19:02

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/12/2025 18:43

I love that pic whenever you share it @Keeptoiletssafe - everything about it is so delightfully bonkers.

Imagine an attendant too! How fabulous.

Funny thing is one person, quite high up in the toilet hierarchy of Document T, told me they should bring back attendants for every set of loos. I was saying how door gaps were necessary for supervision and prevention of misuse, and she said she wouldn’t like anyone hearing her in a toilet. That was her solution. I said about the collapse risk and she said well all of the above is why women should go to the toilet in pairs. It reminds me of the ‘propriety’ comments of the Judge.

It frustrates me because I was reading about another death of a young woman in a toilet cubicle earlier. They had to get firemen out to break the door down. All toilets should be able to be opened quickly, as is in all building standards since at least the 1980s. Too many are not following building standards.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/12/2025 18:43

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 18:37

Some poor mod is now looking at a Victorian loo plan 😂

I love that pic whenever you share it @Keeptoiletssafe - everything about it is so delightfully bonkers.

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 18:37

Some poor mod is now looking at a Victorian loo plan 😂

Keeptoiletssafe · 07/12/2025 18:35

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/12/2025 18:14

I'm rather glad our house retains the original 1930s arrangement of lavatory in a separate room next to the bathroom. And my toothbrush is kept at the far end of the bathroom.

Well…
the lav on certain historical diagrams I look at was actually the sinks. Let’s see if this will load now. It’s some of the first women’s toilets! Hurrah! We still didn’t get as many as the men but we had an attendant and many more sinks per toilet than the men (cos we use them).

I believe the swirls in the men’s are probably more urinals. So the men had 1 attendant, 12 toilets, 28 urinals and 2 sinks. The women had 1 attendant, 5 toilets, 2 sinks.

Nearly 120 years ago. More separate women’s toilets than Leonardos though.

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4
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