Reflections on Trans Arguments

Oh BTW @mymindispuff , the reason I got into this whole thing was because the trans identifying male Monroe Bergdorf made a huge fuss about the pink pussy hats at an anti Trunp protest.

Yes, that's right. Trump made that awful crack about "Grab 'em by the pussy", women grabbed that image as a symbol of their resistance, and an entitled bloke who believes he's a woman whinged about how that excluded him because he's a woman too.

Didn't care that there was a direct connection between the pussy symbol and what Trump said. Didn't care that, regardless of the truth or not of the existence of "woman" who don't have vaginas, the people Trump was "grabbing by the pussy" are by definition people who do have, well, pussies, and those people specifically wanted to protest comments that were directly about them.

Didn't in fact care about why women were angry at all, just cared that he wasn't seen as one of them.

And at that point I realised that these men, these "trans women", were not empathic allies of female people sharing a common enemy in Patriarchal power, they were just another group of men who see us as props for their own centre character, and they will happily destroy the very tools we need to fight exactly the type of sex based injustices and dangers you highlight if those tools require acknowledging the inconvenient truth that most of the reasons being a woman matters in law, in society and in culture are reasons that can never apply to a trans women.

You think it's a distraction to the fight. I think it's protecting the very tools we need to be in the fight.

Yes but at least rape victims in the UK can access a biological safe space and are no longer forced to " refrained their trauma" I'd say that was a gain.

I was on this long before the right wing glommed on to it.

So maybe the right wing were played by Mumsnet.

Oh, apart from it never works that way round does it?

The gender critical is right wing argument always makes me chuckle.

There's an old lawyer courtroom saying. When the law is on your side bang on the law. When the facts are on your side bang on the facts. When neither the law nor the facts are on your side bang on the table.

Blaming gender criticality on the right wing in an attempt to justify dismissing it out of hand is banging on the table. Make a fuss and an angry big spectacle and hope people will fall for it.

so basically the thread has now pivoted to ‘yes but right wing people and guilt by association’

nice to know things remain predictable

I guess what I am saying is that 'United we stand and divided we fall' and I think this trans debate has divided feminists and I feel we are falling and losing ground and once again I very much feel we have been played by the right wing.

Anyway I wish each and every one of you a wonderful weekend and a peaceful coming week. I won't be engaging any further as ice cream is calling me.

If it's so unimportant why don't the people who feel they absolutely have to be accepted as the sex they are, in reality, not, to the degree that women can be literally touched, counselled or representative by a man in a role that is supposed to be reserved for women and she is supposed to force herself to believe the hands touching her are genuinely woman's hands, the person hearing her most vulnerable fears has the same experience of sex based threat and trauma as she does, the person explaining what women need to a government or medical or professional body is speaking with knowledge her sex based needs, why don't those people just drop it, let women (original sex based meaning) continue to exist as a meaningful legal and social group with right to their own language, history and political voice, and maybe even help women deal with those bigger problems?

Women are fighting back. We never asked for this. I'm sure every single one of us would much prefer not to have to do this. So if you think it's not a big deal snd there are bigger things to worry about how about telling the men colonising us to back off?

I think the USA Supreme Court saying 'What even is this' can be used for pretty much every case going forward. Pointing to the highest legal activists in the USA who were unable to evidence any suicide harms and convince them that 'trans' is even a thing is eminently quotable and demonstrable across the globe.

You are deliberately missing the point but I guess also making my point, misogyny is rife. I am not interested in arguing with you about this as nobody gains from it, certainly not woman, and that's really it, we are not better off, we are not safer, we are not paid the same, our healthcare still doesn't matter, rape victims are still not taken seriously...................I am not here to bash other women as I still believe that we have more in common than which side of the trans debate you stand on.

Do Democrat voters have to embrace the anti-woman bullshit?

I dunno. I think the Cass Review was heard fairly clearly around the world. The For Women Scotland Supreme Court decision clarifying what a woman means in the Equality Act also got a fair bit of attention.
While I'm only tongue in cheek arguing which might have had the biggest impact, I'm enourmously grateful for all of them. I'll take any and all wins with a huge smile irrespective of where they come from or who is associated with them. A win is a win, and there's been a lot of BIGLY, THE BIGLYEST EVER, UUUUGGGEE wins recently ;)

Perhaps if the Democrat extremists hadn't been so batshit, the 'MAGA' extremists wouldn't have got a look in. It is this attitude that created MAGA in the first place.

So? Something bad came out of a handful of activist puritans. Does it mean that women have to embrace the MAGA bullshit? How is that the logical consequence? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Bloody Nora! 2015 again?

I'm a little late to this one. I look forward to reading all your responses 😀

On the day of that judgement, I noticed there were several news items on women murdered by men which sat really uncomfortably next to pictures of women celebrating and Rowling smoking that cigar

so just to be clear women are now - checks notes - to be blamed for the juxtaposition of how media outlets lay out stories on their webpages and newspaper?

It is the country that has been pushing this whole shit show. It is probably the most significant judgement across the globe.

Would that be the same Midrul Wahwa, a male person occupying a women only position as head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, who said that any female rape victims who wanted a female only space should learn to reframe their trauma? Prioritising the needs of males sexual fetishists over female rape victims, that Midrul Wahwa? The same malke Midrul Wahwa who with no counciling qualifications liked to listen to the stories of the female rape victims rape from their own mouths?
Or would it be the other male Midrul Wahwa who unlawfully hounded the female worker Roz Adams out of her job at the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre resulting in a £70K payout. The tribunual describing the gender identity theory embraced by ERCC as “dogmatic”, “extreme”, and “hardline”. Is it that male Midrul Wahwa your talking about? Or the first one?

Yeah I find it far more easy to believe “Personally I trust the refuge workers who say that genuine trans women are never the problem but I'd love to see any data.” in the context of Midrul Wahwa and any others like him.

How are you fighting the 'MAGA extremists' exactly?

Perhaps if the Democrat extremists hadn't been so batshit, the 'MAGA' extremists wouldn't have got a look in. It is this attitude that created MAGA in the first place.

Anyhow.
My point was that with the highest and mightiest legal activist minds in the country that brought us this anti humanist agenda still, unable to even define 'trans' it is now officially done.

Bloody hell! I personally think this whole trans debate is utter nonsense concocted by the right wing. On the day of that judgement, I noticed there were several news items on women murdered by men which sat really uncomfortably next to pictures of women celebrating and Rowling smoking that cigar. For me it feels ridiculous and I don't think it makes anyone safer. Our daughters (regardless of how they dress or identify) are not safer, sexual assaults, domestic violence, harassment are all on the up. Go read Laura Bates and Jess Davies latest books and tell me I'm wrong. WE ARE BEING PLAYED.

I can agree with someone that 1+ 1=2 without agreeing with every view they have.

Just checking what the American Supreme Court judgement has to do with UK Law?

As long as you're lucid about the iceberg of shit that those guys trail behind them.

I’d rather look at the facts around the actual issue than give my support according to my “tribal allegiance”.

So after the Midrul Wahwa court case, you expect people to consider your assertion that you trust what people working in refuges say when denying male people in female centres are not the problem?

That statement of yours gets actually more remarkable the more I think about it.

There is a fantastic piece in the New York Times about the US judgement. Apparently many trans activists were worried about taking the Tenessee case tovthe Supreme Court because it concerned minors but the ACLU wouldn't listen and now the defeat has huge implications.

I think we need to take the wins where we can.

I did giggle at that one 🤭