Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Good on you for seeing through the bs.

There are some brilliant trans YouTubers like Buck Angel and Marcus something or other who call out the fake trans, narcissistic activist lot for ruining it for everyone. They kept wanting to take from women and now it's backfired on trans folk too.

We need more sane trans voices speaking up for biological women. And against the selfish fakes and the autogynophiles and the people who don't actually want equality, but want to be validated or even celebrated at the expense of women's safety.

I hope you do all you can to spread your voice. In all fairness, being biologicaly female it seems to be harder to be heard than the bio males who transition (funny that) but please keep speaking up for us in the trans community and calling out the bullshit entitlement of crappy people.

Good luck!

OP

Best of luck and best of health. Maybe it has also been the case now that female people with transgender identities are being weaponised by so many others. When if you have been on MN as you say you have, feminists tend to try to protect those female people. Even if some of them don’t understand what we do and are doing it for.

It is great to hear from you. And I hope that you know, you are not alone. There are other female people with transgender identities who have delurked lately too.

It very much bothers me that trans activists push the wants of trans-identifying males to the fore and ignore the needs of trans-identifying females except when they think these females can be used to argue against women-only services and spaces. It screams of sexism.

OP it’s great to hear from someone like yourself willing to engage.

Good to hear from you OP.

I can't imagine any of your journey to this point has been easy. I hope you're doing OK through all this weird stuff that's now happening in the public discourse (I'm thinking specifically about the fear mongering and twisting of facts about the SC judgement 😞)... from your post it sounds like you're better placed than others when it comes to being grounded on this TBF. It's appalling that a so-called "community" seems to thrive on and weaponise this fear, particularly when it comes to vulnerable young people and children. Thank you for seeing through all the "GC noise" and recognising the support that exists within it.

Thank you everyone for the kind words :)

@Sodthesystem

I'm not in any trans community, unfortunately. I never felt terribly welcome, and other than practical help with transitioning, it didn't bring me anything useful. So I left after I was done transitioning, and never went back.

@UtopiaPlanitia

Yeah, sexism in the trans world is very real. Back when I went to support groups, I was amazed at how the exact same social interactions existed between trans men and trans women as between women and men.

Thank you so much for sharing this, OP. I really worry that voices like yours have been silenced - or cynically misrepresented - just as ours have. It's really good to hear from someone with your background and experience. If more balanced and empathetic perspectives had been foregrounded from the start, we'd all be in such a better place, but balanced and empathetic doesn't get much currency nowadays. I find it tragic (sad, and in the classical sense) that so many trans people themselves have been hurt by their self-proclaimed representatives. I wish you the best of luck in whatever steps you take.

Thank you for posting. It's really lovely to hear your view.

Lovely to see another trans person on here with the same views 🙂
I'm also a trans man and have had very similar experiences with the trans community. I left my local "support" group because it felt so toxic.

I am sincerely very sorry that the trans rights movement has been co-opted by aggressive MRA's. I'm an unapologetic and uncompromising gender abolitionist/sex realist now but I still think about the people with gender dysphoria and about how much harm has been done to them by people who claimed to speak for them.

I am angry with the people government who pandered to the loudest voices. I am angry about the climate of fear that has been created and deterred researchers from trying to find improved treatments for people with gender dysphoria.

I wish you nothing but health and happiness.

Thank you for posting and sending you all best wishes.

Thanks, OP and @changedusernameforthis1- you’re very welcome here.

demanding that the world twist around them

I think this sums up what has been and still is the problem.

And it only really started with the rise in trans activism, which was often not people who are trans, but by those who decided that this was a cause they wanted to be in the forefront of.

And as in the OP and a PP, the problem is that the trans activist narrative would never have got such traction in society if it wasn't based on the age old and still deeply entrenched misogyny.

Trans rights gave MRAs a "legitimate" platform to bully, accuse and berate women.

And the many marches post the supremem court ruling evidence this with the predominance of anti woman placards.

"I can't imagine any of your journey to this point has been easy."

Well, in my case, transitioning is really far from being the most difficult thing I've had to do in my life. First, I had to extricate myself from a deeply abusive family, and a cult-like church: now, that was hard! After that, transitioning almost felt like a breeze.

"from your post it sounds like you're better placed than others when it comes to being grounded on this TBF. It's appalling that a so-called "community" seems to thrive on and weaponise this fear"

It's very much in the very nature of the trans community, unfortunately. Being trans is not quite like being LGB, in the sense that a lot of trans people seek to transition, and once that transition is done, they just live as the opposite sex and don't need much support anymore. Consequently, in my experience, the trans people you find actively participating in trans communities can be more or less categorised as follows:

• Baby trans, pre-transition, who are seeking affirmation and support to make take the step of transitioning;
• Transitioners, who are seeking affirmation and support during those difficult times;
• Post-transition trans people who face specific difficulties in their trans life and need affirmation and support;
• A few transitioned people who stay to help everyone else and give them affirmation and support.

So you can see what the problem is: trans communities are full of highly emotional people in difficult situations, looking for unconditional affirmation and support, with very few "mature" and stable trans people to help them de-escalate situations and look at things rationally. Add in a few people with the common human tendency to see things in black and white, "you're with us or against us", and you end up with the persecution complex so common among trans people. (There are other factors too, such as the effect of hormones or of socialisation, which complicate the matter further.)

high-five

Yeah, I didn't last long with my in-person support group. I mean, right from the second session, I got into a tiff for saying, "I'll never be male like I've been female," which as you can imagine, ruffled a few feathers :D Luckily, there was an absolutely awesome online forum for trans men (and only trans men...), where you could find information about absolutely anything and everything needed to transition.

This is a really helpful insight - thank you. Do you think there is another category (possibly of allies as much as actual trans people) who, for want of a better description, like the idea of being edgy and spicy and therefore want to hang around to show their “specialness”?

Thanks for posting, OP.

I’m so angry at seeing those same aggressive, vocal activists throwing constant tantrums and using transmen (who, let’s face it, they’ve tended to ignore completely up until now) as the boogeyman for women’s toilets and trying to persuade transmen to actually go into women’s toilets and deliberately intimidate women, on the basis that transmen apparently “owe” that to their trans sisters.

I’m also appalled at how they’ve similarly used people with DSDs, butch lesbians and GNC women as human grenades in their attempts to get back into women-only spaces.

It’s so unfortunate that their selfishness is serving to damage the reputation of the whole trans community, and I suspect there will be a schism in the future between different groups of trans people, as these thugs are so aggressive, self-centred and off-putting.

Perhaps a detour from the thread, but I'm interested in this phenomenon.

Did you observe that transwomen (i.e. who had transitioned to female from male) behaved in a traditionally 'masculine' gendered way toward transmen (i.e. who had transitioned to male from female)?

Or was it a case of transmen becoming more traditionally masculine and treating transwomen as if they were 50s housewives?

Thanks for your post. It's such a shame it became a war. If TRAs hadn't gone after women's rights and children's protections so many of us would have fought for them to have third spaces and sports categories. Sadly that ship for me and many has sailed after so much damage has been done. But I still see people as individuals and there are always good and bad individuals in all groups. There are some truly decent trans people who have stuck their heads above the parapet to campaign for children's protections and women's rights, and they have received so much abuse for it.

I wish you a long and happy life OP.

I can't express how much I wish that all the TRAs had directed their efforts towards third spaces and gold standard, evidence based heathcare and support for people with trans identities.

"I am sincerely very sorry that the trans rights movement has been co-opted by aggressive MRA's."

It was inevitable. Once you had the GRA in place, with the GRC being given to pretty much anyone who wants it, it was inevitable that self-ID would follow and from there, well, the whole circus that's happened. I've never been so thankful that my country is not as woke, and that there's still a legal barrier to getting one's official sex marker changed (it's not that hard to get over it, but you have to want it).

"I still think about the people with gender dysphoria and about how much harm has been done to them by people who claimed to speak for them."

They don't count, or barely. Anyone who insists on gender dysphoria being linked to trans identity is vilified in the community. Just like trans men, people with gender dysphoria are only trotted out when useful in an argument, nothing more.

Thank you for the well wishes :)

I don't have personal, real life experience with such people. Back when I transitioned, 13 years ago, in my country at least, it wasn't at all trendy to play at being trans. So all the ones I met were dead serious about it.

Online, though... I'm in fandom, an extremely woke environment, and yeah, I have no doubt that some of the bazillion trans, non-binary, or genderqueer young people who abound there, will eventually turn out to be perfectly average, "cisgender" people in a few years.

"trying to persuade transmen to actually go into women’s toilets and deliberately intimidate women, on the basis that transmen apparently “owe” that to their trans sisters."

I suspect that won't work, for various reasons:

• Trans men actually tend to care for women, so no, most of them won't agree to go and scare them, on principle;
• For trans men who suffer from dysphoria and have been using the men's loos for however long, having to go into the women's toilets could be dysphoria-inducing. They won't be thinking about how to make women uncomfortable; they'll be thinking about how fast they can get out of this unpleasant situation;
• Solidarity with their trans sisters? Yeah, them first.

"I suspect there will be a schism in the future between different groups of trans people"

That already happens, behind closed doors. I mentioned in some other comment somewhere that I used to go on a trans men forum - and trans men only, for good reason.

My views exactly

Thanks @Seethlaw and @changedusernameforthis1. It never was an “us v them” thing till our hands were repeatedly forced.

It is encouraging to hear there are increasing numbers of trans identified people who “get it.”

the biggest issue at the moment is the numbers of people who aren’t trans clamouring loudly against this ruling. If we all work together it would certainly be possible to maintain the rights of women and girls whilst ensuring dignity and safety and protection from harassment for all males too.

It occurred to me that the SR ruling means that actually, trans men could have full protection in a single sex space for trans men. Eg a football team or league of only transmen.

weirdly the trans women don’t want the same 🤨