The political left does defend women's rights - the point is you obviously have felt badly let down by self ID.

the left cannt defend women’s rights if it cannot define what a women actually is. It’s simply impossible to defend what you cannot define.

so we don’t feel let down by self ID we have been let down by self ID

Of course women's rights aren't fascist! I mean precisely that fascism never promotes women's rights. That's just by looking at history.
The political left does defend women's rights - the point is you obviously have felt badly let down by self ID. That's the crux of the issue. But it doesn't mean that everything on the left deserves to be binned. By the way, I also think that the right can make good points too. I have both conservative and progressive friends here and in the US. What I cannot abide are fundamentalists, and especially those with a sneaky religious agenda. That is why I have it in for MAGA and do not trust Reform one bit (because of who is funding them in the background)
It's not a case of left = anti-woman, right= at least they can define woman = champions of women. That's just not the reality.

I have shared this video upthread but I think this is a really thoughtful summary of how things went wrong in the US (but I think a lot applies here too):

Oh aye, those of us criticising the utter failure of the Scottish Government which declares itself to be super progressive and lefty are just sprinting off to sign up as fascists /s

Or maybe the left/centre left have fucked up and alienated a massive section of women who find themselves now politically homeless.

And maybe the election campaign of 'vote for us, you bigot!' isn't a winning strategy.

OK, but women's rights aren't fascist.

Why isn't the political left defending women's rights?

On the right wing topic - as far as I'm concerned, it's more that the reactionary far right loves to stir the pot and use the gender debate for their own cynical political ends. Those ends I would argue are antithetical with equality between men and women.
Has the progressive left failed? That's a good question, but even if it had, that does not mean fascism is a viable alternative.

For anyone wanting to find out more about the institutional capture of organisations across Scotland, leading to women being told to 'reframe your trauma' by the CEO of a rape crisis centre, and violent male sex offenders being placed in the female prison estate following a self id policy set by a lobbying group, I would suggest you read the book 'The Women who Wouldn't Wheesht'.

And then tell me it's all a 'right wing conspiracy theory'. (Spoiler....it's not)

This is what happens when you dismiss this as an important issue. And declare that it is ‘only a few’.

Are there other significant issues? Yes. But why the fuck are we constantly being derided for including this as an important issue as well?

Just because one person believes the prioritisation of women and girl’s needs against gender identity is lower than other priorities doesn’t give them the right to deride and judge others who disagree. It just makes that person someone who chooses to censure other women’s choices which looks suspiciously like authoritarianism to me.

But some of those doing it feel righteous about it. Good for them! Well done to them!

re the ‘only a few’ fallacy

AN ANALYSIS ON HOW JUST A FEW MALE PEOPLE CAN CAUSE HARM TO MANY FEMALE ATHLETES - THE FALSITY OF 'JUST ONE'

@hecheateddotorg
18th March 2025

To analyze performance differences between "trans"-identified male and actual female participants in girls' sport, we need look no further than girls' high school track and field.
Track and field provides the clearest data as it is an individual sport and has had the highest number of recorded male participants to date at the high school level.

There are a total of 37 male athletes on record who have participated in girls' high school track and field in the United States.

Of these 37, one athlete participated in only one race due to the cancellation of the season during the COVID 19 pandemic. Another athlete participated in a tech/private school league that did not participate in a state championship. These two athletes will be excluded from the data.

Out of 1,276 completed events, male athletes finished as follows:
1st place: 440 (34%)
2nd place: 188 (15%)
3rd place: 123 (10%)
Other: 485 (41%)

Male athletes came in 1st 34% of the time, only 7% less often than they did than any other place outside the top 3.

They finished in the top three in 59% of their events and outside the top eight in only 19% of their events.
24 of the 35 male athletes (68%) qualified for their respective State Championship meet in a total of 136 events.

When looking at athletes competing against same-sex peers, depending on the state and division of competition, anywhere from 5 to 15% of athletes are expected to qualify.

For example in states that use regional-sectional qualification, the top 4 finishers at a regional meet (often with 2 heats of 8 runners each) qualify for the sectional meet where the top 4 finishers at the sectional then advance to State. This means that out of 32 runners at regionals, only 4 (12.5%) will advance to State.

This number also does not take into account the fact that only the best runners on a team will be entered in a regional meet and often the same runner will qualify in multiple events. A runner may also have a higher chance of qualifying in a relay as 8 runners (top 2 teams) advance to state rather than 4 in this type of qualification.

In other types of qualification or less competitive, smaller regions, it may be easier to qualify.

At the State Championship meet, there are typically 24 entries in each event. 1 of the 24 will win, meaning 4% of the 15% of athletes who have qualified for state will be a state champion, or 0.6%.

Of the 24 male athletes who qualified for state against girls, 11 of them (46%) have won a state championship title, or 31% of the total.

4 of the 35 male athletes (11%) have also achieved a top 10 national ranking.

The percentage of male athletes who have been in the top 10 of all track and field athletes in the female division in the entire nation is higher than the percentage of female athletes who have won a state title.

To find the percentage of female athletes who are in the top 10, we can take the 57 indoor and outdoor events ranked on milesplit. com multiplied by 10 (10 athletes in each) then divide by the total number of female athletes in high school track and field - 506,015 (according to nfhs. org).

This number does not take into account the fact that many athletes in the top 10 appear there in multiple events and several of the 57 events are less commonly run. (All 4 male athletes in the top 10 achieved that placement in a main event).

This means less than 0.11 percent of female athletes achieve a top 10 ranking.

"But not all states require hormone therapy!"

It is true that some states do not require males to undergo any sort of testosterone suppression or medical intervention in order to compete against girls.

We can therefore, look to the athletes who have reportedly begun "identifying" as the opposite sex and undergone "medical interventions" prior to puberty or in early middle school as it has been proposed that males who do so are in line with "average female performance."

There are 3 athletes who have reportedly "transitioned" prior to puberty. Based on their feminized appearances and high voices, we can infer this included puberty blockers.

All 3 athletes qualified for the state championship meet, 2 of the athletes were conference champions, and one athletes was not only a state champion and New England champion, but he was ranked in the national top 10.

None of these performances are in line with an "average" athlete. In fact, the national ranking out of three athletes is statistically unlikely to the point of being impossible without an athletic advantage.

"But you just know about the athletes who are good. There could be more you don't hear about because they don't win anything."
When we look at the expected percentages, we can see that about 6 out of 1,000 athletes win state and 1 out of 1,000 are in the top 10 national ranking.

In order to see the 24 males as state champions and 4 males in the top 10, there should be around 4,000 males who have competed in the girls' division in track and field. (3,965 additional athletes, none of whom can have won a state title).

There have been 37 on record.
Numerous state senators and legislators have come forward testifying to the number of "trans"-identifying males participating in their states.

When these legislators testify that there have "only been 2" in the state, or in the case of Ohio, 17 athletes in 8 years, and these numbers include all sports, and when male athletes have been banned from participating in girls' sports in about half of the states in the nation, it is not likely that there are an additional 3,963 male athletes that not only does nobody know about, but who also have not won a single state title.

In regards to the prepubescent "transitioners," there should be an additional 1,000 of them who have not won a state title or achieved a top 10 ranking. This is also highly unlikely, as we've seen multiple prepubescent "transitioners" in other sports also winning national and state championship titles.

Male participation in the female division is not just unfair, it is blatantly so.

These percentages do not reflect the cost to the female athletes behind them. Just 2 male athletes in cross country and track and field in Maine have negatively impacted over 2,000 female athletes.

If each male athlete negatively impacted 500 female on average, that means over 18,500 female high school track and field athletes in the United States have been forced to compete against and have been negatively impacted by these boys.
This includes loss of titles, loss of medals, loss of relay spots, loss of entries in large meets, loss of qualifications for championships, loss of records, loss of privacy, and loss of confidence.

*2 male athletes in Maine negatively impacted over 1,600 girls

3 boys in Washington, over 2,000

This is what happens when you dismiss this as an important issue. And declare that it is ‘only a few’.

There is no problem other than

transwomen seemingly committing sexual offenses at a higher rate than men in general

none conforming and homosexual chikdren being given “treatment” with the side effects of sterilisation

yes miss nothing to see, it’s really detracting from the real problems facing women and girls

At this point, people who say 'there's no problem' are either deeply credulous or have deliberately hobbled themselves to be uninformed.

Credulous, craven or dishonest. Those are the options imo

At this point, people who say 'there's no problem' are either deeply credulous or have deliberately hobbled themselves to be uninformed.

This is the independent review for Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre after a damning ET which shows how the institutional capture of the organisation (and many others across Scotland) led to rape survivors who needed to access single sex rape crisis services to suffer harm -

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/resources/ERCC-Review-Report-FINAL1-.pdf

And women celebrating a win which helps such vulnerable women 'sat uncomfortably with you?'

Good God.

i'm just adding that fortunately, women have been seeing this happening, and they have forced a massive spoke in the wheel with the Supreme Court rolling.

You might want to thank them.

mymindispuff

I honestly think that many people simply imagine that if you have men identifying as women, it will all be fine, because it's hardly any, and most people understand anyway and mentally make the separation in their heads.

That it won't really, significantly interfere with actual women and their rights.

Until you get official statistics claiming that women raping other women has significantly increased in the last few years. (And, comments from the man in the street under the articles saying isn't it disgusting, that's feminism for you).

And you have vulnerable women prisoners being housed with male rapists. Women who can't escape, sharing showers with convicted rapists.. All officially sanctioned.

You have nurses in the NHS being forced to take their clothes off in front of men, if they want to keep their jobs. Again, officially sanctioned by the NHS. Do it, or else, love.

You have female suspects being assaulted by men under the guise of strip searching them. With the police cheering them on.

You have lesbians being told they must have sex with men, otherwise it's akin to an apartheid. Being told by the world's ^leading gay charity%, ffs.

You have young women having their breasts removed, because they're being told they're not really women. On the bloody NHS.

What about the way for many women to get out of poverty or attain self-esteem? Sport. There was a man on the radio last week saying oh come on, it's less than 20 men involved in women's sport.

By March 30, 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than 400 women’s division events across 29 different sports were defeated by transgender-identifying men. Male athletes have taken over 890 medals from female athletes.

Come ON !

Open your eyes. This is happening. This isn't the future.

Women's rights are not just being decimated, they are being erased.

Try and understand, if you can't see sex, you can't identify sexism.

Look at all the official bodies, the NHS, the police, the ministry of justice, the government, schools, the IOC, who are all feverishly shovelling the most disgusting sexism down women's throats purely on the basis of the lie that sex doesn't exist.

Wake up.

Loving all the discussion points and the signposting to Mumsnet on Reddit. Please, come, read, discuss. Is this a sign that (some) TRAs are finally, finally, finally realising that this debate isn't going to just stop; that they are currently losing and they don't understand why.

Anti clockwise? There's a wonderful word for that - widdershins!

It's hard enough already to convince people that yes, the shitty things that happen to us are often because sexism. It's amazing how many explanations people (women as well as men) can think up to explain why it might not have been sexism, he might have had a bad day, she might not want financial independence, women just don't apply for those jobs, women can be sex predators as well, sex work is a choice, and on and on and on

If we already can't explain what happens to us because we are women without some man-centered idiot telling us "well, actually...", how is having a whole bunch of "women" who don't face the same challenges at all, who were brought up taking the default credibility that comes with their sex for granted, whose sexuality is formed by male desires and male privilege and not with the vulnerability of pregnancy and the awareness of rape, "women" who interrupt us to tell us that the challenges of our sex are nothing to do with women's rights and feminism, "women" whose voices come with the default credibility of men, how the hell is that NOT making things worse for female people? How the hell is that FEMINISM?

we are not better off, we are not safer, we are not paid the same, our healthcare still doesn't matter, rape victims are still not taken seriously

To make claims like this - which I agree with - you have to know who 'we' are. To take just one example. If you start including male executives who identify as women in figures calculating pay gaps (counting them as women), you skew the data. I'm surprised you can't see that

How can we do anything to improve the lives of women without a definition of women?

Because after years of asking everyone who claims that some men are women not a single person has been able to offer a coherent definition of woman to replace adult human female.

How do we tackle inadequacies in healthcare if we are looking at information pertaining to lots of woman and some men.

How do we prevent violence against women if women means a sexed body or a feeling in someone's head?

How can we increase female representation if the positions and schemes to promote women are also open to some men?

How to we communicate messages to women if we have to cloak them in 'inclusive' language that results in those who have English as an additional language not understanding the messages?

How do we encourage more women to participate in sports and for womens sport to receive more coverage, more money and great recognition of everyone knows the best athletes are in fact men?

*does cause us harm

Women are capable of caring about lots of things at the same time. But I don’t see how allowing a self-selecting group of men unfettered access to female only spaces, activities and opportunities makes our lives any better. But there are countless examples of how this harms women.

No one is saying that keeping transwomen out of our spaces will be a magic cure-all for all the harms we face. But again, allowing a self-selecting group access to our stuff dies cause us harm

Indeed. That would be the Wadwha that I meant.

The same one that left the SNP because they allowed the extra words in the law to specify that a rape victim could ask for and have reasonable expectation to get a same sex medical examiner.

The same one who told us the rush of power that he had over deciding if a woman in the USA got food vouchers to feed her family or not when he managed a call centre in India.

That is the person I refer too.

But nothing to see at all.

Not sure what you think has been concocted (made up)?

You seem to have conflated two things, sexual assaults on women going up, and you disagreeing that women need single sex spaces and services sometimes when our sexed bodies differences matter.

Not sure what you are arguing. That because assaults have gone up we shouldn’t make it harder for any man to self-ID into women’s spaces?

And we are back to the boring shit and ignorant right wing tropes.

Cos there's no where else for the attacks to go because they've run out of all other arguments.

Well, precisely.

I'm wondering who our last 'won't somebody think of thr menz' posted has passed the baton to. We've had one after another since this thread started.

Well, summer fete season, I suppose - this is clearly the whack-a-mole stall.

Well don't tell us. Go and tell the people who are so obsessed with pronouns and including male women in everything that they've lost the fucking plot and need to go back to basics and start supporting female women again.