Reflections on Trans Arguments

Thank you! I have had so many tedious and annoying and, frankly, patronising conversations along exactly these lines - people explaining patiently that The Wrong Ones might get in if I don't ignore my red lines and obediently put my cross in the box.

Going to try this analogy.

It's also worth pointing out that this time last year gender critical feminists on this board were coming under sustained attack from people who thought we all had a moral obligation to vote to get the Tories out of government, even if that meant getting a government that might bring in self ID, because after 14 years of Tory misrule the country was on its knees and needed Labour to save it.

I said I hadn't seen any real evidence to suggest that Labour actually had a plan to fix the country and would be more competent than the Tories. If they really had seemed obviously better in every other way I might have voted for them even with their problematic views about women's rights. But there's no point abandoning your feminist principles to get the Tories out if the likely result of a Labour win is just same shit different colour.

A year in, I do feel rather vindicated. Most people seem pretty disappointed by the performance of the current Labour government, and it's not clear that getting the Tories out has actually made a positive difference to people's lives so far.

I do think that the impact on women's rights of having a Labour government hasn't been as bad as I had feared, but the credit for that largely goes to the Cass Review (which was commissioned by the Tories) and the Supreme Court judgment. I am hoping that Labour starts to find its feet and make some positive changes for the country, and that the combined impact of Cass, the Supreme Court judgment and increased public awareness of this issue keeps the trans activist lunatics in the party in check. I'm cautiously encouraged by the responses of people like Wes Streeting and Bridget Phillipson, and comforted in the knowledge that the Supreme Court has knocked self ID by stealth on the head, and that if trans women are to be allowed in women's spaces it will take new legislation to remove women's sex based rights in the Equality Act.

RESPECT MY SEX IF YOU WANT MY ‘X’

Simple.

I think why the party isn't a perfect fit is relevant here.

Imagine you were Jewish and your choice was between a party with bad policies all round, and a party which had decent economic and social policies in general, but was overtly antisemitic.

Nobody could reasonably expect you to vote for an antisemitic party, could they?

Sometimes a red line is a red line, regardless of what else might be happening.

That's the whole problem with politics nowadays. The reality is that if you don't find a perfect fit for you as voter, abstaining amounts to voting in the winners. So, the logic whereby a party has to do better and actively deserve our vote rather than win by default is flawed considering that by not voting for those who 'should do better', you end up supporting the other guys by default. And the outcome in our system is binary: either the 'could do betters' win and in that case what have you really gained or the other party gets in and in that case you end up with an even worse option.

I saw a cake stall by the roadside yesterday that had a stack of tunnocks besides all the home baking and was briefly wondering if it was a secret MN signal.

And the free Tunnocks. Don’t forget the tunnocks.

I bet what mymindispuff means is that the only reason we object is because the right told us there is something to object to, not that there is a problem with the left-driven GI agenda, because we women couldn't possibly have opinions of our own. Remember all that cash we're getting from the US Christian extreme right?

So many great posts on this thread, thanks for starting it OP.

It's not a 'trans' debate. It's a womens rights debate. And since we are winning and gaining ground, your statement makes no sense.

I very much feel we have been played by the right wing.
You are misguided and misinformed. Once again, it is the LEFT WING that are driving this. You really haven't been paying any attention at all, whatsoever, have you?

It's LEFT WING FEMINISTS that are driving this, not the "right wing". Please stop promoting misogynist myths. You are not listening to feminists. Having female only spaces makes us safer, BY DEFINITION.

Do you mean trans women? Not trans men. Evidence shows transwomen sexually offend at a greater rate than other males.

And it's not just about safety. It's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze.

Oh we have the misogynistic tropes all here;

"bitter" TERFs (what's the matter, forgot to use witch or hag or bitch?), and,

You aren't concentrating on 'real' issues (despite the fact females can multitask) which is really just as an excuse because you don't want us discussing women's oppression at all.

Having female only spaces for women and girls affects 100% of the female sex every single day, and is the difference between a woman participating in society and going back to the Urinary Leash days and self-excluding.

You don't understand that outside of your privileged misogynistic echo chamber, polls all show that the overwhelming majority of people support the retention of single sex spaces for the vulnerable female sex. This, is why those like yourself in your echo chamber are deeply out of touch with society and why feminists are winning the war.

many people have a very narrow view of gender

You are confusing SEX with 'gender'. And sex, by the fact there is the oppressor sex class (males) and the oppressed sex class (females), and females are oppressed based on our sex and our rights assigned based on our sex, means it is very narrow based not only on biology but necessity.

fanatically obsessed with the idea that trans rights should be curtailed - and maybe eliminated altogether.

Nobody is interested in seeing trans 'rights' curtailed or eliminated. Especially when it's about privileges and stolen rights they never had, in the first place. We are interested in seeing the rights of the female sex class returned.

Nothing more, nothing less than that.

Yes. I'm another man who wants the many women (including ones who see themselves as trans) I have reason to care about, and the ones I don't know personally, to have the dignity and relative safety of women's spaces. We, and all men, should keep out. For akkakk and for me, this is no burden at all, but even if it was, we should do it out of respect for women and their needs. Who doesn't do things that are personally inconvenient because we know that it's right to do them?

Once more, for the gallery: it is not my duty, as a woman, to hold my nose and vote for a bunch of self-righteous misogynists (or clueless dickheads, as it may be) because they're leftier than the other misogynists (or clueless dickheads, as it may be) and therefore identify as The Goodies.

It is, in fact, their job to persuade me to vote for them, perhaps by appealing to me and showing they understand my concerns and will act on my priorities.

So far, they haven't. So they haven't had my vote for years.

If The Baddies win because The Goodies are so complacent or fucking stupid that they take my vote for granted and fuck me over in the interests of a few entitled men and posh kids with blue hair, that's on them. Not me.

TL:DR go talk to Labour. They're the only ones with the power to change things.

Hear hear!

Bloody hell why do women get the blame for the leftist parties credulous, craven and dishonest abandonment of them?! Women are not obliged to suck it up.

You realise if the Left believe they have women's votes without having to support our rights against genderist aggression there is no hope whatsoever that they will do anything to support us?

There are far more of us but the Left's current assessment is that we are less batshit and will vote for the broad best while the TRAs won't. The Left need to understand if they cannot protect our interests they will lose our votes

The only rational strategy for women to make it clear our votes are dependant on our confidence that a party will support women's sex based rights, social legitimacy and political voice.

Until that happens, forgive me if I don't feel it's my duty as a woman to throw myself on the fucking fire to protect the rights of people who won't even consider protecting mine.

The burden of sacrifice is always expected of women and when they refuse to throw themselves on the fire they get blamed for the flames not burning high enough.

No. Respect women and their rights, earn our votes and if you don't the consequences that follow are the fault of those who failed repeatedly to do so. If you value women and our votes then fucking show us.

And how has the political system in this country gotten to a dreary, 'I suppose they're the least shite option so if I must' scenario? I used to be excited about voting. To feel that there would be tangible change. As it is, the only option is simply to change one shite situation for another.

fair enough. But I will never vote for Labour until they start supporting women’s rights and that will only be when my sitting MP isn’t the candidate. I will never support this particular person again. If that means I’m in bed with the right wing in your opinion then so be it.

The TRA agenda has only been able to get this far because too many women for all sorts of reasons have not stood up and said “no”.

I'm never voting for the Labour Party again, after this nihilistic death spiral they are putting into law. So unless someone puts together a leftist party that isn't trying to destroy the whole of UK, the options are limited.

Somewhat are we supposed to do? Carry on voting for a party that not only puts Trans rights ahead of women's rights but also lie and gas light us about what harm it does to women and whether anyone ever mentions it 'on the doorstep'.

Yeah, fuck that.

I'm not supporting anyone, be default or otherwise.

If the left want to beat the opposition, they need to be better than them. They need to win my vote.

Then let’s hope that the left leaning parties get there acts together and stop leaving the door wide open to Reform.

Just as I have no illusions that anything other than losing money will make a large number of organisations abide by the law, Labour will only support women’s rights because they fear losing votes and not from a point of principle.

Quite frankly right now I don’t care that they will be acting from a self preservation standpoint- we just need to stop the juggernaut of TRA politics and get back on an even keel.