Reflections on Trans Arguments

Female identifying trans folk ARE a threat to us. They are often highly violent, aggressive men who seem to have swung from extreme machoism into a provocative version of being a woman. Why would we just roll over and let these men in?

Dylan Mulvaney is not the prototype. Look instead at Isla Bryson. And all the middle aged men who suddenly grow breasts and dress as porn stars.

It is ridiculous to say we have common cause with these men. And it is like a beauty queen wishing for world peace to say we all benefit from reducing inequality etc etc - that's just a slogan on a placard and has no tangible impact on the vulnerable woman who is now being pushed aside by a confident man in a dress.

And now we have the sealioning.

Nope not playing.

Data please. Show me evidence that women are being attacked by trans men, particularly in toilets or other single sex spaces. I can't find any but it may exist. And then compare this with the number of women attacked by other men. Personally I trust the refuge workers who say that genuine trans women are never the problem but I'd love to see any data.

If you're genuinely curious about the intersection of sex, biology and gender roles you could also compare this with the number of women attacked by other women (very high in lesbian groups), and attacked by gay men (almost non existent).

Its not 'punching down' when the person doing the punching is a woman in prison who has been told she has to share her cell and showers with a man. And her sentence is increased for objecting.
Her situation is the exact and precise opposite of punching down. You describing her as the abuser is the textbook definition of DARVO.

Tell you what, *TemporarilyChangedToday, *you would be bucking the trend of almost all transactivists, if you put your money where your mouth is and actually had a proper discussion.

Until then, we may not own the conversation, but we sure as hell own the argument.

Just fucking explain it then.

If you can't that does rather prove the point, no?

Sorry obviously I meant men. As the other posters apparently realised. Well noted!

Stop it with the hurtful inconvenient arguments. It's not very welcoming nor is it respectful enough.

I think we should give due consideration to the obligatory opinion piece provided for us stating how wrong you are about offending patterns based on the sum total of fuck all or the murder of trans people in Brazil and how it's not nice to talk about it because there's so many nice transpeople.

Let's just do nice and only ever talk nicely and about nice things and never ever address anything we don't seem to be nice. Nice world sounds lovely.

Be nice. Nice nice nice. Nicey Nicey. Smashie and Nicey.

Please do tell us how you’ve come to the conclusion that “female-identifying trans folk […] are in general very much less of a threat to you than men and 'the system' n general” because that is not my experience and I’ve seen no evidence that would suggest this is true, men commit violence at higher rates than women, whatever their gender identity.

There has been a concerted effort for many years to stop women in general and women on Mumsnet in particular to stop talking about this subject. In general, no debate, no platforming, rape and death threats, threats against employment etc. On Mumsnet, ddos attacks, doxxing by Interns, pressure put on advertisers etc. On other platforms, groups will block or ban users who state gender critical views (the gender critical reddit sub was just removed entirely). This is one of the few places women have been able to talk about this stuff. And yet we still get the footstamping tantrums that women have managed to, despite all this, continued to have necessary conversations.

As for the usual 'there's other issues too!!!!', 1. who the fuck are you to dictate what women concentrate on and 2. the pushback to all this shit has actually enacted change - violent male sex offenders are no longer held in the female estate in Scotland. Helping vulnerable female prisoners is a good thing to anyone who isn't a complete tumshie

There's a reason the phrase women won't wheesht took such a hold. We won't wheesht, no matter how much you stamp your feet. We're used to dealing with toddler tantrums.

What do you mean "no-one believes that trans women have different DNA to other women"? Unless they are utterly deluded absolutely nobody believes that "trans women" have the same DNA as real women. They are men. Being male is the one essential requirement to be a "trans women". Males possess a Y chromosome while females do not.

And that's precisely why JKR is hated. She makes necessary conversations become mainstream. MN is regarded as a bunch of Cassandras who can be ignored 95% if the time. And that's on all subjects that affect women significantly in a different way to men not just trans related issues.

No, I mean in general most people are happy to pretend they are women except in situations where we actually distinguish between women and men, in which case suddenly they are not like other women because reasons.

I've actually heard the opposite tbh.

Had a transman, a non binary man and two gay men round a few weeks ago, they mentioned jkr…but not mumsnet

Go outside of MN and you'll find curiosity and discussion as to why such a bitter TERF view has taken hold on MN and in the UK so specifically

nope

never heard anyone ever say this…generally in any conversation I have had on this subject MN is not mentioned at all

In previous generations sterilisation was a way of handling unwanted women - the young girls pregnant outside of marriage, those of the wrong racial background, disbaled

yet here we are accused of “punching down” because we don’t want young girls to be sterilised as a side effect of their transgender medicatiksn

in previous generations we fight against FGM - yet here we are “punching down “ when we say chikdren should not have surgery on their genitals

this is so two faced

You don't own the conversation. You just think you do and that makes us all worse off in the auk

No, users here don't own the conversation. But neither do you. You have plenty of places to discuss on your own terms with your own social conventions.

Here we have our own social conventions which others don't get to dictate. This is the only place we have that.

One of those is actually about answering the difficult questions over safeguarding and addressing the failure to respect the privacy and dignity of women which is ignored everywhere else.

One of those is being able to provide a good quality argument about whether transitioning a) works b) is harmful to those transitioning

There HAS been an influx lately of people here who have an opening post of 'you all are hateful bigots etc etc' together with atrociously sourced links which are about as reliable as a chocolate teapot. If you start off attacking people on their own patch, you aren't going to get the red carpet laid out. Indeed you successfully manage to damage goodwill and undermine your own arguments from the start. That's done all by themselves without any aid or assistance from us. Imagine trying to fight a battle where your first action is to deliberately shoot yourself in the foot. That is bad faith and we don't have time for it.

If you genuinely want to debate, do so. Understand that the level of debate is high. You will need to have good counter arguments to our concerns otherwise those concerns will continue to be concerns. You can not ignore these problems. They aren't going away and we won't let them drop. There seems to be this weird idea that we should just play nice and give other points of view a gentle touch and an easy ride. Why? It's hugely important issues that have massive ramifications!

Ultimately there isn't a compromise to be made over whether sex is real or not. If you want legal protection as a transperson you need to recognise sex as otherwise you are invisible in law and can't claim a protected characteristic because you are indefinable. If you want medical treatment ultimately your sex matters if you want good quality care that won't harm you. If you want biological children, sex remains fundamental. This does not change just because you want to try and replace sex with gender.

So yeah, tough shit. You can call it a parody with zero insight all you damn well like. It's how it is, and you need to address those points and not expect a free pass cos I treat all people equally on all subjects across MN. All things that affect society require due diligence and accountability - not just being nice. Trans issues are not an exception. There seems to be this weird argument that for this subject, the normal level of scrutiny, debate and knowledge that exists throughout the site in terms of political engagement and participation should just disappear. No. That's not how it works.

Wah wah wah it's not fair, I don't like these social etiquette rules here because it's hampering my domination of the subject in the wider real world public sphere, is not a valid argument. Go and up the level of your debating skills if it bothers you so much.

FWIW I have argued against the grain on MN many, many times. Ultimately I believe that if your argument is good enough it will win through even if there's a lot more people who disagree to begin with. And I've seen minds changed because of it.

They're not like women any other significant way either. They're only like women in the same ways that all other men are like women. Even after hormones and surgery. The rest is just wishful thinking and other people politely pretending not to notice the difference. Sorry!

Right, so why are they trying to claim additional rights / privileges for 'transwomen' then?

If you mean no-one believes that trans women have different DNA to other women, then yes, that is correct. No-one does.

To think otherwise would be ridiculous. To think others think otherwise would be ridiculous

I think some women tried that already and the guys were not happy about it 🫠

Just to be clear for everyone. Women who say no to men trying to infiltrate their spaces are not 'punching down'.

HTH

Wait… do transwomen have to be men? Could I not, in my current pregnant state, claim to be a transwoman? Just because? If transwomen are women, and I’m a woman, does that mean I can be a transwoman if I wanted to be one?

Does anyone REALLY believe that TWAW? I thought it was just a phrase people repeated to show they're in the 'be kind' tribe.