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Original poster

Thank You from a Trans Lurker

560 replies

Seethlaw · 01/05/2025 16:42

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

OP posts:
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PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 22:56

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 21:55

{insert queasy emoji here}

Double that 🤮🤮

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 21:55

{insert queasy emoji here}

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 19:52

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 19:45

Yes, it's a deliberate act of transgression. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Thank you. On the thread you made there's a comment about women who find underwear and think their husband is having an affair. She says how unlikely it is that you'd just forget your underwear and she always thinks it's more likely the husband has stolen it! I'd never thought of that when I've seen those threads but it's a distinct possibility.

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 19:45

Yes, it's a deliberate act of transgression. I'm sorry that happened to you.

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 19:36

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 19:04

I made a thread about men who steal women's underwear, a while back.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4812952-stealing-womens-underwear

Just awful, I read about Andrew Miller. That poor young girl must have been terrified.
I remember having some underwear and clothes stolen from my washing line once. There was an easy access to my back garden. Fortunately there isn't where I live now but I never hung my undies outside again. I don't think it occurred to me to report it but I was really upset about it at the time.

IButtleSir · 15/05/2025 18:14

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 17:30

I expect that paraphilias/fetishes often involve a strong emotional 'charge' from some element of childhood, that becomes sexualised at puberty. Sometimes childhood trauma has an influence.

There are actually a lot of accounts of it from various cross dressing men, including Grayson Perry, who's written about it in his autobiog. Very often boys/men steal the clothes (often the underclothes) of their sisters and/or mothers. See Caitlyn Jenner.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/caitlyn-jenner-at-chicago-house-event/62376/

This really isn't the heartwarming and amusing story he thinks it is...

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 18:06

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 17:46

An adult trying on their child's clothes? Oooof. That's a whole other thing from a boy trying on his mother's clothes...

And how does a grown adult try on a 10yo girl's clothes anyway??

Show quote history

That's all kinds of wrong!! God, get your own clothes Kaitlyn!

Original poster
Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 17:46

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 17:30

I expect that paraphilias/fetishes often involve a strong emotional 'charge' from some element of childhood, that becomes sexualised at puberty. Sometimes childhood trauma has an influence.

There are actually a lot of accounts of it from various cross dressing men, including Grayson Perry, who's written about it in his autobiog. Very often boys/men steal the clothes (often the underclothes) of their sisters and/or mothers. See Caitlyn Jenner.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/caitlyn-jenner-at-chicago-house-event/62376/

An adult trying on their child's clothes? Oooof. That's a whole other thing from a boy trying on his mother's clothes...

And how does a grown adult try on a 10yo girl's clothes anyway??

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 17:30

I expect that paraphilias/fetishes often involve a strong emotional 'charge' from some element of childhood, that becomes sexualised at puberty. Sometimes childhood trauma has an influence.

There are actually a lot of accounts of it from various cross dressing men, including Grayson Perry, who's written about it in his autobiog. Very often boys/men steal the clothes (often the underclothes) of their sisters and/or mothers. See Caitlyn Jenner.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/caitlyn-jenner-at-chicago-house-event/62376/

‘I Thought I Was So Clever': Caitlyn Jenner Tells Story About Being Caught Trying on Daughter's Clothing

Caitlyn Jenner revealed stories about her life prior to her coming out as a woman in a speech for a local LGBTQ organization.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/caitlyn-jenner-at-chicago-house-event/62376/

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 17:23

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 16:52

@PhoebesPony

"I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. "

I have zero doubt about it, at least for some of them, that specifically breaking a taboo is what gets them going sexually. I mean, some of them outright say so.

Keeping it secret part as a child, however, is not so simple. A lot of (presumably) non-AGP trans women express that they loved wearing female clothing or playing with make-up or whatever as children, and that they kept it a secret, because they knew it was a forbidden thing and people would get mad at them if they knew. They didn't get any sexual thrill from breaking the taboo, but they knew they were breaking a taboo all the same, and hid as a consequence.

Show quote history

Yes as children there wouldn't be a sexual element to it but does that just naturally follow on later as they get older if they carry on with it, or do they first experience it as adults I wonder.

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 17:16

murasaki · 15/05/2025 16:43

Is it because you think the boy would be bullied more than the girl? I'd worry about that.

Yes probably. My instinct is just no! But how I would deal with it in practice I don't know. It' would be quite difficult to know what to do.

Original poster
Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 16:59

@ArabellaScott

Right. I keep forgetting about sissification. I know about it! I read gay fanfic, and sissification is a not so small part of it. But I have a negative interest in it, so the very existence of it keeps fleeting out of my head.

And of course there can't be any female counterpart. There can't be any shame to wearing men's clothes for a woman, so that's a whole impetus for female cross dressing that doesn't exist.

OP posts:
Original poster
Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 16:52

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 16:38

**
"To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?"
Good question! I guess it's much harder to determine, even for the woman herself, because women can wear men's clothes freely, there's no stigma attached to it, so it would take a bit of introspection to determine whether her liking to wearing men's clothes qualifies as cross dressing.

I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. If I'm really honest I'd happily send a daughter to school with a short haircut and typical boys clothes but if a son wanted to go wearing a dress and hair in a ponytail I would find that a bit difficult. It's wrong and I don't agree with myself haha 😂 but there it is.

Edited

@PhoebesPony

"I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. "

I have zero doubt about it, at least for some of them, that specifically breaking a taboo is what gets them going sexually. I mean, some of them outright say so.

Keeping it secret part as a child, however, is not so simple. A lot of (presumably) non-AGP trans women express that they loved wearing female clothing or playing with make-up or whatever as children, and that they kept it a secret, because they knew it was a forbidden thing and people would get mad at them if they knew. They didn't get any sexual thrill from breaking the taboo, but they knew they were breaking a taboo all the same, and hid as a consequence.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 16:48

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 16:38

**
"To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?"
Good question! I guess it's much harder to determine, even for the woman herself, because women can wear men's clothes freely, there's no stigma attached to it, so it would take a bit of introspection to determine whether her liking to wearing men's clothes qualifies as cross dressing.

I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. If I'm really honest I'd happily send a daughter to school with a short haircut and typical boys clothes but if a son wanted to go wearing a dress and hair in a ponytail I would find that a bit difficult. It's wrong and I don't agree with myself haha 😂 but there it is.

Edited

It's the power differential.

A girl dressing 'as a boy' is seen as brave.

A boy dressing 'as a girl' is seen as 'a sissy'.

It's just a reflection of the inherent sexism of society.

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 16:48

This reply has been deleted

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murasaki · 15/05/2025 16:43

Is it because you think the boy would be bullied more than the girl? I'd worry about that.

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 16:38

**
"To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?"
Good question! I guess it's much harder to determine, even for the woman herself, because women can wear men's clothes freely, there's no stigma attached to it, so it would take a bit of introspection to determine whether her liking to wearing men's clothes qualifies as cross dressing.

I wonder, if it's true that there are a lot of AGP's ,whether some of that is down to the strong taboos against boys wearing typically female clothing, hairstyles etc. So it becomes a sort of secret for them growing up. If I'm really honest I'd happily send a daughter to school with a short haircut and typical boys clothes but if a son wanted to go wearing a dress and hair in a ponytail I would find that a bit difficult. It's wrong and I don't agree with myself haha 😂 but there it is.

murasaki · 15/05/2025 16:27

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 16:20

I'm thinking now of the male prisioners who suddenly become trans. They are clearly not! So I do think there's a small section of, I imagine it's mainly men, who are doing it for nefarious purposes. At the same time most trans people I would think genuinely believe they are trans or prefer to live as what they perceive to be the opposite sex.

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I totally agree re the prisoners, it's very evident that it's done for personal gain. And I can't believe that people bought into it, especially the Scottish Government.

Re the others, who knows. We can't. Which I suppose is where 'if you say you are, you are' bit came from. I believe that line is still being held, simultaneously with 'but not them' which is what baffles me.

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 16:20

murasaki · 15/05/2025 16:04

The line was always that if you say you're trans, you are.

But now there seems to be a clause saying 'apart from those ones, obviously'.

Which makes no sense.

I'm thinking now of the male prisioners who suddenly become trans. They are clearly not! So I do think there's a small section of, I imagine it's mainly men, who are doing it for nefarious purposes. At the same time most trans people I would think genuinely believe they are trans or prefer to live as what they perceive to be the opposite sex.

Original poster
Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 16:11

Interesting! At first I was surprised, but then I realised I really shouldn't be. After all, I'm in fandom, so I know how obsessed with gay sex some women can be. It only makes sense that there would be some so obsessed with it that they'd want to enact it.

Personally, I'm attracted to men, but that's about it. I don't experience sexual arousal at the thought of having gay sex myself. On the contrary, it's one of the rare things that creates strong dysphoria in me, because I know I can never have it.

@TheKeatingFive

"What's the difference between a cross dresser and 'really trans'?"

A very tentative explanation would be that a cross dresser feels like they are one sex, but likes presenting as the other sex for whatever reason, while a "really trans" person feels like they are the other sex and that's why they present as such. So it would be a question of motivation, which makes it impossible to determine from the outside unless they outright say so. And they would both equally be covered under the larger trans umbrella anyway.

@PhoebesPony

"To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?"

Good question! I guess it's much harder to determine, even for the woman herself, because women can wear men's clothes freely, there's no stigma attached to it, so it would take a bit of introspection to determine whether her liking to wearing men's clothes qualifies as cross dressing.

OP posts:
murasaki · 15/05/2025 16:04

The line was always that if you say you're trans, you are.

But now there seems to be a clause saying 'apart from those ones, obviously'.

Which makes no sense.

TheKeatingFive · 15/05/2025 15:40

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 15:38

No I don't know either to be honest

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Fair enough

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 15:38

TheKeatingFive · 15/05/2025 15:37

Well I think someone like Debbie Hayton definitely lives their life as trans. It's just that they're also very open about the sexual element.

I just don't know how you draw the line between 'real' and not 'real'

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No I don't know either to be honest

TheKeatingFive · 15/05/2025 15:37

PhoebesPony · 15/05/2025 15:33

Hmm difficult question. I don't know how trans people think, but it seems from the mention of AGP's that they are motivated by the sexual arousal they get from wearing women's or men's clothes. I'm assuming it's something deeper for trans people who fully live their lives as trans but you'd have to ask that of a trans person, what their motivations are

Show quote history

Well I think someone like Debbie Hayton definitely lives their life as trans. It's just that they're also very open about the sexual element.

I just don't know how you draw the line between 'real' and not 'real'