Stealing women's underwear

[ArabeIIaScott]

An article on Andrew Miller talking about his history of fetishistic and paraphiliac behaviour.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10715569/trans-butcher-andrew-miller-stealing-knickers/

Andrew Miller was well known locally for stealing underwear.

'“Searches of Miller’s home recovered numerous items of female children and teenagers’ underwear.”'

Looking into theft of women's clothing as apparently a fairly well known paraphilic behaviour, I can't find mention of it as a specific disorder or fetish in medical literature generally. There seems to be very little in the way of research/writing on it.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26849134_Fetishism_and_Kleptomania_A_Case_Report_in_Forensic_Psychiatry

Seems this is enough of a commonly recurring behaviour to raise red flags?

And surely it should be treated as a sex crime rather than simple theft?

A few headlines:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/sexually-motivated-burglar-tried-stolen-15007766

'Sexually-motivated burglar tried on stolen women's clothes in garden and 'touched himself inappropriately''

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/perv-caught-stealing-underwear-washing-29148780

'Perv caught stealing underwear from washing lines to dress up his blow-up sex doll'

(Noting this man was placed on the Sex Offender's register, because the judge rightly recognised the seuxal element to this crime, which his defense claimed was 'only theft'.)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11612901/Pervert-dad-Joshua-Murrell-admits-stealing-thousands-bras-undies-Melbourne-women.html

'Pervert dad admits stealing thousands of bras and undies from tormented women during depraved rampage - and using their lingerie on his sex doll'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/knicker-stealing-lorry-driver-fuelled-13111399

'Knicker-stealing lorry driver fuelled habit for wearing women's clothing through string of underwear burglaries'

It is a sexual offence and any judge should treat it as such.

It isn't a sex offense in law.

I see we now have a voyeurism in breastfeeding offense, which I wasn't aware of. And 'upskirting' has been added fairly recently as a new offense.

But this is classed as 'theft'.

So I guess any judge has to make the point that the one did upthread, connect the theft to the sexual element, and draw inferences.

On this subject I've always wondered when you hear about women finding another woman's underwear as evidence her partner is cheating. Is this actually a thing that happens or is it just from tv? Do women actually forget their underwear? I've always thought he probably stole the underwear when I hear this. Am I way off base here? Anyone got home after a fun night with a man and realise 'oops I'm not wearing my pants!'

In the 1970s it was a habit well-known enough to be a common subject of jokes, and the general attitude was that the perpetrators were sleazy perverts rather than ordinary thieves and in the same class as peeping toms. (Both sorts occasionally got duffed up by irate male family members.) I don't think they were considered dangerous, though. Escalation wasn't commonly known about in sexual offences, I don't think.

And I did indeed have knickers nicked from my washing line in the 70s, in a rural area.

"In the 1970s it was a habit well-known enough to be a common subject of jokes, and the general attitude was that the perpetrators were sleazy perverts rather than ordinary thieves and in the same class as peeping toms."

Same in the 90's semi rural village I grew up in. Although I don't think I heard of it actually happening it was just something that was part of a joke sometimes. And definitely a pervert thing to do not just theft

It's funny that lots of these things used to be very common knowledge - Peeping Toms, knicker-stealers, flashers.

They were largely treated as fairly harmless pervy behaviour, in my experience.

Now there seems to be a bit more acknowledgment of how low-level sexual offences are red flags for potential escalation, but awareness of these issues seems much lower, or is that just my perception?

It's as if the more clearly we see the harm, the more the behaviours become invisible.

There have been a few threads from both sexes of parents who have discovered that their sons have stolen the underwear of either the unknowing mother ( whose husband wrote in asking for advice and he was told by women not to break the confidence of his son by telling his wife), sister (mother wrote in saying that she discovered her son wearing his sister's knickers and that he did this often and again this was minimised by women more concerned about the reputation of infringing teen young men than the dignity of their victims) and another when a mother who discovered her son had been wearing her knickers who thought that good parenting means actually buying knickers for him, thus missing the whole non consensual point of her son's paraphilia! Again , there was a chorus of dumb women enabling the fuckry .

I have come to the conclusion that a lot of "knicker stealing" by perverted men starts in the original home with female family members being the first victims and if discovered is minimised as if he is a toddler who has shat outside of the potty whilst being toilet trained so as to not give them a complex about the elimination process.

A certain cross dresser/ now " woman" is very strongly rumoured to have violated his ex wives and daughters, step and bio in such a way and apparently has a tense relationship with his seeming no nonsense mother that I sometimes wonder is the source of that decades long tension.

I am very thankful for this little corner of Mumsnet when the male identification in other sections can get too much.

I just came on to say I remember stealing underwear being quite a big thing in the 70s and my Mum was worried about it - isn't it funny how this knowledge gets lost.

I'm wondering if there's a strange thing happening, where we are both recognising the harms of these behaviours on one hand (Wayne Cousens' flashing as a stark example of escalation) and having new rationalising for the behaviour offered on the other (I'm thinking of Julie-Ann Curtiss' quote about stealing their step-mother's underwear, and when a lock was put in place, stealing the key). Curtiss' thefts were described as harmless actions, just a way for a transwoman to fulfill a need, almost a comic turn.

We do seem to have entered an era of 'Be nice to the creepy guy, just in case he's a transwoman.'

I just came on to say I remember stealing underwear being quite a big thing in the 70s and my Mum was worried about it - isn't it funny how this knowledge gets lost.

I was going to say this. My mother was genuinely worried. As a child, I picked up that it was 'rude' rather than funny.

Those who remember the 70's and worries over stolen underwear. Was there also worries over abducted kids or flashers? We had fear of the white van man hammered into us. School new letters saying xyz local school reported someone tried to abduct a child. I know of 2 children in my cohort got flashed walking home from school.

Now in a town I see on fb alerts go around some kid nearly got abducted near xyz school.

Stealing underwear is a pervert jokey thing but I don't hear of it happening locally like I do other stuff.

Well done that judge.

Bloody awful how these things are minimised so often.

It's the kind of thing that usually escalates. There was a teenager here a few years ago known for stealing knickers, he went on to rape a very young girl in a local park while still a teenager. It really does need to be taken more seriously.

The picture of Miller in the top right is usually shown cropped, the full version is a sexy cheesecake shot and a plug for the powers of photo editing.

I wonder if knicker stealing has decreased (assuming it has) because knickers can be bought on line. Blokes don't have to brave the underwear shop to indulge their fetish. I believe, some women even sell their dirty knickers on the internet. I think that any bloke who is still stealing should definitely be festooned with red flags because the transgression and lack of consent would seem to be an essential part of their behaviour and may escalate to more serious sexual crimes.

I remember the word my Mother used for the stealers of underwear now. It was ‘dirty’. I also remember it wasn’t just stealing. A neighbour had her knickers ‘tried on’ and put back.

I always think this when read threads about washing being “darked on” because that was one of the main reasons my Mother was so careful to bring the clothes in and hide the female family members’ underwear if she could.

A bloke in the village next to ours at this sort of time was also well known for this sort of theft ( amongst other ‘creepy’ behaviours). The authorities didn’t take it very seriously, it was just ‘petty pilfering’ - although the local policeman was very concerned.

Eventually he waylaid his next door neighbour, with whom he was infatuated, while she was walking her dog, and beat her to death.

I've seen a couple of threads on here where that's what happened - although the consenus is generally that they have been left "accidently on purpose" so that the wife finds out and the man goes to the other woman

Christ, Allthegoodnames.

Is there a way we can ask for more research on this, and consideration of this as a new category of sex crime?

Pink Floyd did a song about this topic.

Pardon? Men are such wierd creatures

That Pink Floyd song was released in 1967.

What he's stealing is only obliquely referred to, but listeners were obviously expected to know exactly what he was after. And he's described as "a nasty sort of person".

Have things changed? Is it no longer talked about?

I can remember when my mum was working she would remind me to remember to bring in the washing before it got dark because "there's some strange people about who like to steal women's knickers and bras" - this was when I was a kid/teen in the late 70s/early 80s

So yes, this seemed to be common knowledge up until two minutes ago.

I wonder if the "forgetting" is linked to the normalising of fetishes/kinks and the non judgemental attitude that's encouraged around them?

This is fascinating thanks.

It mirrors surrogacy in that we know far more than ever before about infant experience in utero and also about trauma. Simultaneously that knowledge has to be damped down lest we offend the wrong kind of male.